From an interesting book, "The Chord Scale Theory and Jazz Harmony" by Barrie Nettles and Richard Graf about some differences between the G altered scale and Db Mixolydian (#11)
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Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)
- Thread starter Roger DeLarge
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From an interesting book, "The Chord Scale Theory and Jazz Harmony" by Barrie Nettles and Richard Graf about some differences between the G altered scale and Db Mixolydian (#11)
I think you misunderstand here. Avoid notes are played in the altered scales because the whole point is to build tension to release back to the I. So while, yes a b9 is very dissonant, in the case of playing it over an altered dominant 5 chord, it works because there is resolution from going back to the I.
Maybe, I'm too pedantic. I've read the following:
1. Tension notes are notes other than chord tones.
2. If the note creates the b9th interval from one of the chord tones - in my case from G and Bb in G7Alt,
then,
the note becomes a scale note(!) rather than a tension note.
P.S. I think I would use some knowledge from the second book I've quoted while finding notes to play over that G7Alt chord - The Db Lydian7 scale, because Lydian/Lydian b7 has no Avoid Notes.
Also, from Mark Levine's, "Jazz Theory".
That's why I love Music Theory.
P.S. I truly hope that my TB colleagues could understand my humor...
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Remember, if you are playing over a G7 alt, you are playing the G7 altered scale. The b9 is the Ab, not the Bb.
Another way to think of it is that you are playing the Ab Melodic Minor, or the Db Lydian 7 if you start on the b5th above the G.
Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you are trying to ask.
Another way to think of it is that you are playing the Ab Melodic Minor, or the Db Lydian 7 if you start on the b5th above the G.
Maybe I am just misunderstanding what you are trying to ask.
Db Lydian Dominant is simply the 4th mode of Ab Melodic Minor. Therefore you can play ANY mode of the Ab Melodic minor over G7 and the resulting sonority will be the same.
Here's a thing that folks might want to remember. All of the modes of a given parent scale are the exact same notes. Modes are not about what mode to play over a chord. Modes simply tell you where on the fretboard to play a phrase. So if the Db Lydian Dominant over a G7 has NO avoid notes, then the Ab Melodic minor over a G7 has NO avoid notes either, because there are ALL the same notes.
So what's the difference? They are simply played in different places on the fretboard. It could be lower, it could be higher, but in either case, it gives you a different "view" pitch-wise. I could have said different "sound", pitch-wise, but that's too obvious and not really what it's about...
So if you play a phrase using the pitch collection of notes from Ab Melodic Minor, OR Db Lydian Dominant (or any other mode of Ab Melodic Minor) and the underlying harmony is G7, then that pitch collection INSTANTLY becomes, G7alt. NOT because of any particular mode, but because of the HARMONY THAT UNDERPINS THAT PITCH COLLECTION.
My opinion is that whole "Chord Scale" and "Avoid Note" thing adds a layer of confusion that is not needed. If you are blowing through some changes, nobody is gonna care about "avoid notes" as long as you have something to say, which simply and only means you are effectively controlling the tension and release of your phrases.
Most importantly, if you take the time to study what you are doing, the "Avoid Notes" take care of themselves.
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I agree. I never think about avoid notes. I know the general rules of them, but it's not going to dictate what I play. If I see a G7 alt, I know I can do a lot of things. I could just slide up a half step and play an Ab minor pentatonic if I wanted to.
I never have once sit down and mapped out a solo on paper. I just play over changes all the time and let my ears decide what works best. And thats it. Thats all I care about. If I end up thinking that I could do better, or choose even better notes, I start studying what horn players have played over similar changes.
Additionally, I would suggest studying with a really good teacher. You can tell them - "I'm using a Lydian Dominant/melodic minor over this alt chord, but I feel like it's not really sounding where I'd like it to be" and they can guide you on exercises or concepts that can expose weaknesses. Maybe you are playing too scalar, or maybe you don't know all the different modes of the melodic minor that well.
For example, I really like to play the 6th mode of Melodic Minor, the Locrian Natural 2. It just gets me into playing some different licks that aren't my usual things that I would do if I just slid up to the b9 and looked at the scale as a basic melodic minor. Plus it is basically like playing Aeolian, except the 5 is flat. So it's easy to get under your fingers. You could drone a G7Alt and just work on that concept and then after you have it you could do a ii-V-I in Cmaj7 and play that scale over both the Dmin7 and the G7alt, and work on resolving it to C maj. Over a G7Alt, you would play an F Locrian Natural 2.
Some good stuff, albeit a little confusing, is Jazz Improv for Bass by Carol Kaye. Once you have a firm understanding of the stuff I posted, I'd give that a read.
I never have once sit down and mapped out a solo on paper. I just play over changes all the time and let my ears decide what works best. And thats it. Thats all I care about. If I end up thinking that I could do better, or choose even better notes, I start studying what horn players have played over similar changes.
Additionally, I would suggest studying with a really good teacher. You can tell them - "I'm using a Lydian Dominant/melodic minor over this alt chord, but I feel like it's not really sounding where I'd like it to be" and they can guide you on exercises or concepts that can expose weaknesses. Maybe you are playing too scalar, or maybe you don't know all the different modes of the melodic minor that well.
For example, I really like to play the 6th mode of Melodic Minor, the Locrian Natural 2. It just gets me into playing some different licks that aren't my usual things that I would do if I just slid up to the b9 and looked at the scale as a basic melodic minor. Plus it is basically like playing Aeolian, except the 5 is flat. So it's easy to get under your fingers. You could drone a G7Alt and just work on that concept and then after you have it you could do a ii-V-I in Cmaj7 and play that scale over both the Dmin7 and the G7alt, and work on resolving it to C maj. Over a G7Alt, you would play an F Locrian Natural 2.
Some good stuff, albeit a little confusing, is Jazz Improv for Bass by Carol Kaye. Once you have a firm understanding of the stuff I posted, I'd give that a read.
Another thing also, is that you are NEVER gonna play all the notes in a scale when soloing. Scales are too bulky to use that way so there's no point in agonizing over avoid notes. If you see G7alt, you might play 3 or 4 notes of a scale or whatever. You are just looking for a sound, or vibe. Not academic perfection.
Having said all that, I do think you do need to know the whole scale so you can figure out the juicy bits, lol.
That Joe Henderson transcription WUTP posted earlier looks kinda confusing because there is no C natural associated with G7alt. But you gotta realize, that IT DOESN'T MATTER. If anyone knows how to solo it's Joe Henderson and he was simply controlling tension and release. Academic perfection was the last thing on his mind...
But as I think about it, I'm sure at the time Joe was playing just what he wanted to play over a plain ole vanilla G7. Whoever transcribed it, decided that is was G7alt and simply wrote that down.
My personal thought is that it's the notes you choose to play over vanilla changes that determines the chord extensions and alterations. The lead sheet alterations are just suggestions, as far as I'm concerned.
Having said all that, I do think you do need to know the whole scale so you can figure out the juicy bits, lol.
That Joe Henderson transcription WUTP posted earlier looks kinda confusing because there is no C natural associated with G7alt. But you gotta realize, that IT DOESN'T MATTER. If anyone knows how to solo it's Joe Henderson and he was simply controlling tension and release. Academic perfection was the last thing on his mind...
But as I think about it, I'm sure at the time Joe was playing just what he wanted to play over a plain ole vanilla G7. Whoever transcribed it, decided that is was G7alt and simply wrote that down.
My personal thought is that it's the notes you choose to play over vanilla changes that determines the chord extensions and alterations. The lead sheet alterations are just suggestions, as far as I'm concerned.
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...Db Lydian Dominant over a G7(Alt)...
I think you, kind of, pretty much have summarized my opinion.
I agree with you.
When I used to record my noodling outside with Presonus One DAW, I would purposely play those "avoid notes" just to "make mad" some of our theoreticians. In some cases, those "avoid" notes were easy to "manage", in other cases, it would require some "additional crafting" in order to situate those notes in the some melodic phrasing without too much "what is this???".
Here is more about that b9th interval.
See, now look at that "Altered Mixolydian" attachment, and how it goes on and on about avoid notes. If you match that Mixo scale against the Ab melodic minor, guess what? You'll see that Ab MM has no avoid notes to even think about.
I guess the point was to show how the altered scale is derived, but it seemed a bit much.
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I guess so.
I know you don't like my long postings. I truly trying to minimize my wording.
LOL no sorry, that was not a dig on your posting. I mean, I guess that's what they teach in some music schools. It was really more a comment that there are ways to "just do it", without having to sort through a lot of material that could take you down a rabbit hole.
I actually learned a lot from the post, e.g. that scale is a hybrid of two Mixolydian scales a tritone apart. But I only get it, because I am already somewhat familiar with melodic minor. If I had to sort through that from scratch, I'd probably miss the point.
It means that you are not against that "non-scale" note. F#/Gb in the Ab jazz melodic minor scale (Bb Lydian Augmented). My ears have accepted that note to go along with G7Alt.
There it is... You have to train yourself to get into those altered sounds... get it in your ear. Or as Mingus said, "Better Git it in Your Soul..."
Just between you and me.
More than a year ago, in a similar thread, "The myth of modes", an excellent bass teacher and a superb Double Bass Seriously World Class Pro player commented on my similar "strange note hearing".
But of course I don't remember it
, but of course I forgot it 
...He said,
"I think what you're finding here is that your mastery of certain sounds is not(!) developed in your ears/hearing (
) and connected your ability to grab those sounds on the bass. That will come in time, and you are on the right path. The ultimate goal might be to understand things intellectually, but not let that get in the way of trusting your ears and your gut when you pick up the bass."
Wow, for a guy as well-respected and conversant in jazz harmony -- who, by the way, just passed away a couple weeks ago -- Barrie Nettles sure went out on a limb with this statement:
“Chords using Mixolydian or any form of altered Mixolydian are expected to resolve down a perfect 5th; chords using Lydian b7 are expected to resolve with root motion not down a perfect 5th.”
Given that the Lydian b7 scale is the exact same pitch class collection as Mixolydian #11 (which counts as an altered form of Mixolydian), one has to ask: Expected by whom? How does Nettles think the chords know [sic] the difference?!?!
Moreover, how does anyone -- including Nettles -- think that they can even hear the difference? The notes G-A-B-C#-D-E-F are going to sound exactly the same regardless of what you call that collection.
I get that referring to these scales differently depending upon usage has a certain appeal to music theorists who want to ascribe functional implications to the nomenclature. But that's really a bit disingenuous; it's putting the cart before the horse, and is more an example of non-applied theory than anything one would find valuable on the bandstand or when composing, or arranging... or even while analyzing a performance.
Groove Master
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A Mixo #11 doesn't make sense and that is the essence of the statement between the two forms of scales as been different in their functions and use.
It makes total sense to differ the two because they don't function the same way and don't resolve at the same place. Very simple.
I totally endorse the Nettle's statement...
Not to start any argument with a highly-educated musician, but...
Before I try to babble something and make a fool of myself, just a note/ question .
Does the mixolydian #11 have that 4th avoid note?
Groove Master
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I'll answer this: There is no such thing as a Mixo #11,period. I haven't follow the whole thread but this is a big mistake. It should be called a dominant #11 not Mixo for a very simple reason: it doesn't resolve a perfect fifth down like a Mixo does per its function. The ear doesn't want that.
OK. Let's call it the dominant #11 scale.
Does it have the 4th degree?
We can have a major #9 chord with the major/minor 3rd.
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Here is a little quizz for those participating in this thread:
What is the difference between Db9(#11) and G7 alt going on Cmin?
What is the difference between Db9(#11) and G7 alt going on Cmin?
