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Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by Roger DeLarge, May 13, 2017.


  1. So are you saying this pitch collection is "better" or more useful because it avoids the 4th? Because all the rest of the notes are the same as in Rev J's example which was: G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G = 1,b2(b9),b3(#9),4,b5,b6(#5),b7,1

    But for me it's just easier to think G Locrian and go with it than having to think about the flat 7th of a particular chord, then work out a new pattern to avoid a single note. Play it fast, who's gonna care?

    So I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing here.
     
  2. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Check this web-site.
    www.bruceeskovitz.com
    AltDominant.PNG
    A melodic.PNG

    DiatonicChordsAmelodic.PNG
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
    Spin Doctor likes this.
  3. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
  4. davidhilton

    davidhilton Commercial User

    Apr 13, 2009
    Los Angeles, CA
    It's not about avoiding the 4th, I just like the sound. Having the guide tones in your lines helps bring the chord's quality out.
     
    Spin Doctor likes this.
  5. K cool, that makes sense.
     
  6. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Let's take a look at George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Table.

    We can find that, more or less, the alt dominant chord in the column +V.
    It means that our root - G - of the G7alt chord - is the #5th degree of the parent scale which is B (or Cb) Lydian Augmented scale - the third mode of the Ab melodic (jazz) minor scale.

    Ab(flat) Melodic Minor Scale Notes: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G, just played from the note, Cb (B)

    As one can see, the notes are the same as recommended by David Hilton, just George Russell recommends to use it as the B(Cb) Lydian Augmented scale.

    LydianAugmented.PNG

    Ab-melodi.PNG

    Here is the bass fretboard diagram of the Ab jazz melodic minor scale (Bb Lydian Augmented). I just could not switch from sharps to flats on Guitar Pro.
    BassFretboard-BLydianAugmented.PNG
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
    Spin Doctor and davidhilton like this.
  7. davidhilton

    davidhilton Commercial User

    Apr 13, 2009
    Los Angeles, CA
    Playing
    I was only replying to the post where someone said they play locrian from the root of a A7 in the key of C. I always teach my students to learn all the jazz minor modes and to be able to nail them from all the different scale degrees of a Dom Chord- and other chords as well. I love the sound of the Mixo b13 (5th degree of jazz minor) starting on the b13 of the chord. Also learning all the bebop scales. I like the sound of playing the melodic minor bebop from the b9; Ab, Bb, Cb (B), Db, Eb, E natural, F, G, again you have the guide tones on the downbeat. IMO, learning all the mel min modes and knowing how they sound and fit over dom chords really gives you a broader vocabulary. Playing the Lyd #5 from the 3rd of a dom chord has a real hip sound. Of course you're not always gonna play the entire scale, sometimes in broken 3rds, or differ intervalic patterns, both ascending and descending, however you like the sound. But this is really only relating to soloing over the changes- walking over a ii, V, I, V7/ii, is a whole other approach. www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  8. The thing I'm running into as I try to get my head around using this material, is how "bulky" the scale seems when I try to execute it over a chord or progression. So now I'm trying to find ways to strip it down so I can get at the juicy parts without so much of the extra stuff. I had the same problem with I tried to work with bebop scales.

    Having said all that, I'm pretty much from the Jimmy Haslip school of soloing, where nearly everything is diatonic with only a very occasional outside note. I don't plan to get too caught up in playing a lot of the outside stuff like the newer players seem to be, since I'm not sure doing that adds a lot of value, but I would like to be able to execute some of that.
     
    davidhilton likes this.
  9. davidhilton

    davidhilton Commercial User

    Apr 13, 2009
    Los Angeles, CA
    Well Haslip uses pentatonics a lot... really a lot... matter fact, most solo's Iv'e heard him play are almost all minor pentatonic stuff. You don't have go outside when you use pentatonics. For instance over an Eb maj 7#11 you can play, Eb maj pent, Fmaj pent, Cmin pent, Bb maj, Gmin pent, Dmin pent. And with those you have all the different sound shapes from every scale degree of the pentatonics. And as far as bebop scales go, you have tremendous possibilities for soloing over changes. I see scales as part of one's vocabulary, what you're really looking for is phrasing and thematic development, an using parts of the scales, all of the scale, ascending, descending, broken thirds, four note groupings, hexitonics. tritonics, etc... Scales just give you a vast amount of vocabulary to choose, if you're hearing a certain sound in your head you know what to play to bring that out. You don't want to sound like your'e running the scales up and down, but as musical phrases.
    www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
    Whousedtoplay and Mushroo like this.
  10. Yeah, Haslip does use a lot of pentatonics, but to me, pentatonics are typically diatonic to a key or key center. I guess what I meant to say is that he tends to use the scales, modes, arpeggios and pentatonics that are diatonic to a key center vice playing a lot of non-diatonic notes.

    I generally use a lot of scale based forms in my solos. I am pretty familiar with broken 3rds, broken 6ths, alternating broken 3rds and 6ths, and the rest you mentioned above, in every permutation. Haven't done much with the 6 note hexatonic stuff yet though. Some stuff I'm more fluent with than others. I use a lot of pentatonics also. I have a pretty good handle on manipulating scale forms, I think, for an amateur player.

    I was just thinking about how to add more color to what I'm doing and also, work on a cleaner execution that has a good arc.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2017
    davidhilton likes this.
  11. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. It's only my amateur beginner bassist attempt to find some "soloing" notes to play over the G7Alt chord.
    I have no idea if it's correct. Take it as a comic relief.

    This morning I tried to find those "main" notes for the G7Alt chord.
    I took David Hilton's b7 - F, George Russell's parent scale root - B (Cb), Ab and Eb - because it's the root of Ab melodic minor and the 5th.
    I would start with David's suggestion - F!

    Fretboard1.PNG

    Next, I've expanded my note choice in the same position.
    What's interesting, due to my "deaf" ears and amateur musician status, I really liked the "non-scale" note, F#/Gb(???).
    Here is my next choice of notes in the same position.
    Fretboard2.PNG
    When I got familiar with the notes in that position, I've ventured into some higher areas of the registry.
    Once again, that a la "bebop dominant scale note" - F#/Gb still sounded OK to me.

    Fretboard3.PNG

    Here is my concocted exercise in order to get used to those notes.
    It has no musical value! It's just an attempt to search for the notes that could be used with the G7Alt chord.

    I have highlighted that "bebop dominant" note - Gb/F#.
    G7Alt-Notes1.PNG G7Alt-Notes2.PNG

    The following is a part of my exercise that I cannot play - I don't have enough technique for it.
    I wish I could play it.
    G7Alt-Notes3.PNG G7Alt-Notes4.PNG G7Alt-Notes5.PNG G7Alt-Notes6.PNG

    Here is the sound of those notes used with G7Alt from GP.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=558f1f8defe5f52ec80b70523fb0d2bd
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 25, 2017
  12. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    P.S. I promise it's my last "voluminous" post in this thread.
    P.S.2. It's only my amateur vision about the notes suitable playing over the G7Alt chord. Please, check with your teacher or youtube videos, or internet courses, etc...
    P.S.3. It's only my beginner amateur "ideas" for those who are temporarily self-taught(!) and like spending time with the bass guitar.

    I use the following notes as the G7Alt chord.
    G7AltChord.PNG

    While noodling with my bass, I've "discovered" that "almost" all notes from the Db/C# Mixolydian scale/mode are suitable for that G7Alt chord.

    I say, "Almost" because there is one note that my (only my) ears accepts as "good" but it's not on the G altered scale. I've mentioned about it yesterday. It's the note F#/Gb.
    What's strange, that there are a lot of other "strange" notes but only that "bebop dominant"(???) F#Gb note from the G altered scale sounds "appropriate" to my ears.

    (As we learned yesterday, the most appropriate scale to play over the G7Alt chord is Ab melodic minor with all its modes, like Super Locrian.)

    Here is/are the bass fretboard diagram/s with my position/s of that Db/C# Mixolydian scale.
    Db-C#-Mixolydian.PNG

    My favorite fingering in that position of the same.
    I've used a question mark for that "in question" note - F#/Gb.
    Db-C#-Mixolydian-2.PNG

    As an amateur beginner bassist, I'm fascinated with the "architectural possibilities" of the "broken-interval" Db/C# Mixolydian scale.
    Db-C#-Mixolydian-3.PNG Db-C#-Mixolydian-4.PNG
    Or the following "broken-interval-architecture."
    B(Cb)LydianAug-1.PNG
    In short.
    I have some "established" positions with "good"/suitable (and verified) notes to "solo" over the G7Alt chord - all of the above, plus (the main one) from my yesterday's posting.
    Fretboard1.PNG

    As an amateur bassist and a complete "soloist" beginner, I can "push"/play any notes from my selected positions and it should sound OK (to my ears.) The rhythmic phrasing I've left up to practicing bass players.

    Here is my lame attempt called, "Etude for Finding G7Alt Notes".
    Sorry for some "strange rhythmic notation" in Bar 11 and Bar 12; therefore,
    Bars 13, 14, 15, and 16 have only quarter notes.

    G7Alt-Etude1.PNG G7Alt-Etude2.PNG

    And, as always, the sound clip from Guitar Pro.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=8bb5c91984675c14d6b380966aff47f1

    Here is just a comping backup without any "soloing" instrument for anyone to practice.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=8bb5c91984675c14d6b380966aff47f1
     

    Attached Files:

    Mushroo likes this.
  13. davidhilton

    davidhilton Commercial User

    Apr 13, 2009
    Los Angeles, CA
    "While noodling with my bass, I've "discovered" that "almost" all notes from the Db/C# Mixolydian scale/mode are suitable for that G7Alt chord." Thats because G7alt and Db7#11 are basically the same chord. Db7 is the tritone sub for G7. Both the alt scale- G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, F, and the Db7 lydian b7- Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, Cb, come from the same parent scale of Ab mel minor.
    www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  14. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Thank you for you comment.

    This morning, I decided to add some, kind of, double stops (or not) for the G7Alt chord.
    I can play it as double stops or just as single notes - Bb (A string) and Gb(G string), B natural(A string) and Bb(G string), etc...

    Here is the fretboard of those double stops in the high registry.
    G7Alt-DStops-fretboard1.PNG


    Here is a short and simple noodling exercise with DStops for G7Alt.
    G7Alt-DStops.PNG G7Alt-DStops-2.PNG
    And here is a sound clip of that exercise from GP.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/g7alt-cs2-dstops-mp3.1142665/
     

    Attached Files:

  15. davidhilton

    davidhilton Commercial User

    Apr 13, 2009
    Los Angeles, CA
    This is unadulterated G7alt, I just laid down a bass line with the groove, then overdubbed a solo over that. I tried to it keep simple. Can't access my Logic files so I tried garageband for the first time. No Idea how to mix on it, and I need to change my strings, and I have no idea how I came to those effects, ... hahahaha!
    www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     

    Attached Files:

    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  16. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I"ve really(!) enjoyed your comping spacious bass groove with intricate rhythmic displacements that perfectly matched all that moody soloing "exploring the unknown corners of our nebulous universe".
    (It's somewhere in the same domain as Animation (with R.I.P. Bob Belden, sax/flute) last album - Machine Language with Bill Laswell on the bass.
    I've noticed that you are not afraid to use any chromatic notes - C or E, etc... - in your solo.
    In one spot, I've heard a double stop M2 - Bb(G string) and Ab (D string).
    Maybe, it's due to your use of a lot of reverb, but I decided to add it to my Ab Melodic Minor or G7Alt "architectural design".
    AbMelodicMinor-Chord1.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord2.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord3.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord4.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord5.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord6.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord7.PNG AbMelodicMinor-Chord8.PNG

    Here is a simple exercise with those double/triple stops.
    Nothing rhythmically interesting, just getting used to those stops on the fretboard.
    G7Alt-Chord-1.PNG G7Alt-Chord-2.PNG
    G7Alt-Chord-3.PNG
    And here is a sound clip from GP.
    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=aa09973e894fe73fea8af5f29155684b
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 29, 2017
    davidhilton likes this.
  17. davidhilton

    davidhilton Commercial User

    Apr 13, 2009
    Los Angeles, CA
    Ha! There really was no thought or prep going recording this, I'm just playing over a G7alt'. My soloing on it was kept very simple, I think I was just trying to play some melodies and develop some themes. Also since there's a bass line I really couldn't go too far into the lower range or it would just get muddy, because usually when I solo at gigs with my trio I'm exploring all the range of my bass (Nordstrand nj5). As far as intricate rhythmic displacements, I'm not sure about that man, haha. And as far as chromaticism, yeah that's a given. When I get logic up again I'll do some more examples if anyone is interested. www.basslessonslosangeles.com
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  18. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    Just jealous...

    Two years ago, when I picked up my bass again and even tried to learn how to "solo", I would record long clips of some accompaniment - the drums, bass, even the keyboard, then, I would play some notes over those chords.
    Mostly, it was just one chord.:roflmao: drool

    Oh, yeah. I totally understand it. When I try to record a bass-line (on JB) and then, add some "improvising" line with the same JB, it takes a lot of time to "unmuddy" the mix, even both bass-lines - comping and "soloing" - are in different registers.
    Here is a two-year old comping to practice the C melodic minor scale - CmMaj7.
    (If we follow the same logic of alt chords, then, it should be C melodic minor scale - B7Alt.)

    As an amateur pop musician, my bass-line is straightforward without any intricacies of your rhythmic spaciousness.
    P.S. Also, I see/hear that one CmMaj7 chord as a live and active body.


    https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=05fa60d46241442559aab9994e6ef7c2
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 29, 2017
  19. AngelCrusher

    AngelCrusher Supporting Member

    Sep 12, 2004
    Mesa Boogie, Tech 21, Taylor
    Funny thing about all of this is it took two articles to say the same thing - When you encounter a Dominant with a #11, You can play a Mixolydian with a #11, which is the Lydian Dominant.
     
    Whousedtoplay likes this.
  20. Whousedtoplay

    Whousedtoplay

    May 18, 2013
    TEXAS
    I'm reading ""Jazz Theory I 5th edition"
    by Hiroaki Honshuku
    New England Conservatory.
    Here is an excerpt from that book about "Avoid" notes.
    (It's all about that "b9th".)

    b9th1.PNG b9th2.PNG
    Now.
    Let's look at G7Alt chord built on the altered scale (from Wikipedia):

    "The altered chord's harmony is built on the altered scale, which includes all the alterations:
    • root
    • 9 (=2)
    • 9 (=2 or 3)
    • 3
    • 11 (=4 or 5)
    • 13 (=5)
    • 7"
    It looks like we have two(2) b9th intervals from G altered scale.
    b9th-with-G7Alt.PNG

    According to the book from above, it should be "Avoid Notes", but to my ears those "avoid notes" sound so good.
     

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