Melodic minor mode? (Music theory)

[Spin Doctor]

That may sound ok, however, starting the locrian natural 9 on the b7 of the dom chord gives you an alt'd dom sound with the b7, r, b9,#9, 3, b5 b13 = F, G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, www.basslessonslosangeles.com

So are you saying this pitch collection is "better" or more useful because it avoids the 4th? Because all the rest of the notes are the same as in Rev J's example which was: G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G = 1,b2(b9),b3(#9),4,b5,b6(#5),b7,1

But for me it's just easier to think G Locrian and go with it than having to think about the flat 7th of a particular chord, then work out a new pattern to avoid a single note. Play it fast, who's gonna care?

So I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing here.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

So are you saying this pitch collection is "better" or more useful because it avoids the 4th? Because all the rest of the notes are the same as in Rev J's example which was: G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G = 1,b2(b9),b3(#9),4,b5,b6(#5),b7,1

But for me it's just easier to think G Locrian and go with it than having to think about the flat 7th of a particular chord, then work out a new pattern to avoid a single note. Play it fast, who's gonna care?

So I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing here.

Check this web-site.
www.bruceeskovitz.com

 

[Whousedtoplay]

"What if you played the melodic minor scale from the 7th tone of the scale to the 7th tone? This is what we call the “altered” or “super locrian“ mode."
Altered / Super Locrian scale = 1, b9, #9, 3, b5, #5, b7
Who else wants to learn how to solo with the "altered scale?" - Hear and Play Music Learning Center

 

[davidhilton]

So are you saying this pitch collection is "better" or more useful because it avoids the 4th? Because all the rest of the notes are the same as in Rev J's example which was: G, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G = 1,b2(b9),b3(#9),4,b5,b6(#5),b7,1

But for me it's just easier to think G Locrian and go with it than having to think about the flat 7th of a particular chord, then work out a new pattern to avoid a single note. Play it fast, who's gonna care?

So I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing here.

It's not about avoiding the 4th, I just like the sound. Having the guide tones in your lines helps bring the chord's quality out.

 

[Spin Doctor]

It's not about avoiding the 4th, I just like the sound. Having the guide tones in your lines helps bring the chord's quality out.

K cool, that makes sense.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's take a look at George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Table.

We can find that, more or less, the alt dominant chord in the column +V.
It means that our root - G - of the G7alt chord - is the #5th degree of the parent scale which is B (or Cb) Lydian Augmented scale - the third mode of the Ab melodic (jazz) minor scale.

Ab(flat) Melodic Minor Scale Notes: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G, just played from the note, Cb (B)

As one can see, the notes are the same as recommended by David Hilton, just George Russell recommends to use it as the B(Cb) Lydian Augmented scale.

Here is the bass fretboard diagram of the Ab jazz melodic minor scale (Bb Lydian Augmented). I just could not switch from sharps to flats on Guitar Pro.

 

[davidhilton]

When the piano or guitar player tells you to. You both need to be on the same page harmonically or everything's gonna sound like doody.

Like if he says "Listen, when we get to the A7, flat the 6 of that scale." THEN you do it. If he doesn't say anything, just stick to regular mixolydian (or diminished or whole tone if you're feeling randy).

Playing

Let's take a look at George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Table.

We can find that, more or less, the alt dominant chord in the column +V.
It means that our root - G - of the G7alt chord - is the #5th degree of the parent scale which is B (or Cb) Lydian Augmented scale - the third mode of the Ab melodic (jazz) minor scale.

Ab(flat) Melodic Minor Scale Notes: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G, just played from the note, Cb (B)

As one can see, the notes are the same as recommended by David Hilton, just George Russell recommends to use it as the B(Cb) Lydian Augmented scale.

View attachment 1140020

View attachment 1140035

I was only replying to the post where someone said they play locrian from the root of a A7 in the key of C. I always teach my students to learn all the jazz minor modes and to be able to nail them from all the different scale degrees of a Dom Chord- and other chords as well. I love the sound of the Mixo b13 (5th degree of jazz minor) starting on the b13 of the chord. Also learning all the bebop scales. I like the sound of playing the melodic minor bebop from the b9; Ab, Bb, Cb (B), Db, Eb, E natural, F, G, again you have the guide tones on the downbeat. IMO, learning all the mel min modes and knowing how they sound and fit over dom chords really gives you a broader vocabulary. Playing the Lyd #5 from the 3rd of a dom chord has a real hip sound. Of course you're not always gonna play the entire scale, sometimes in broken 3rds, or differ intervalic patterns, both ascending and descending, however you like the sound. But this is really only relating to soloing over the changes- walking over a ii, V, I, V7/ii, is a whole other approach. www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[Spin Doctor]

Playing

I was only replying to the post where someone said they play locrian from the root of a A7 in the key of C. I always teach my students to learn all the jazz minor modes and to be able to nail them from all the different scale degrees of a Dom Chord- and other chords as well. I love the sound of the Mixo b13 (5th degree of jazz minor) starting on the b13 of the chord. Also learning all the bebop scales. I like the sound of playing the melodic minor bebop from the b9; Ab, Bb, Cb (B), Db, Eb, E natural, F, G, again you have the guide tones on the downbeat. IMO, learning all the mel min modes and knowing how they sound and fit over dom chords really gives you a broader vocabulary. Playing the Lyd #5 from the 3rd of a dom chord has a real hip sound. Of course you're not always gonna play the entire scale, sometimes in broken 3rds, or differ intervalic patterns, both ascending and descending, however you like the sound. But this is really only relating to soloing over the changes- walking over a ii, V, I, V7/ii, is a whole other approach. www.basslessonslosangeles.com

The thing I'm running into as I try to get my head around using this material, is how "bulky" the scale seems when I try to execute it over a chord or progression. So now I'm trying to find ways to strip it down so I can get at the juicy parts without so much of the extra stuff. I had the same problem with I tried to work with bebop scales.

Having said all that, I'm pretty much from the Jimmy Haslip school of soloing, where nearly everything is diatonic with only a very occasional outside note. I don't plan to get too caught up in playing a lot of the outside stuff like the newer players seem to be, since I'm not sure doing that adds a lot of value, but I would like to be able to execute some of that.

 

[davidhilton]

The thing I'm running into as I try to get my head around using this material, is how "bulky" the scale seems when I try to execute it over a chord or progression. So now I'm trying to find ways to strip it down so I can get at the juicy parts without so much of the extra stuff. I had the same problem with I tried to work with bebop scales.

Having said all that, I'm pretty much from the Jimmy Haslip school of soloing, where nearly everything is diatonic with only a very occasional outside note. I don't plan to get too caught up in playing a lot of the outside stuff like the newer players seem to be, since I'm not sure doing that adds a lot of value, but I would like to be able to execute some of that.

Well Haslip uses pentatonics a lot... really a lot... matter fact, most solo's Iv'e heard him play are almost all minor pentatonic stuff. You don't have go outside when you use pentatonics. For instance over an Eb maj 7#11 you can play, Eb maj pent, Fmaj pent, Cmin pent, Bb maj, Gmin pent, Dmin pent. And with those you have all the different sound shapes from every scale degree of the pentatonics. And as far as bebop scales go, you have tremendous possibilities for soloing over changes. I see scales as part of one's vocabulary, what you're really looking for is phrasing and thematic development, an using parts of the scales, all of the scale, ascending, descending, broken thirds, four note groupings, hexitonics. tritonics, etc... Scales just give you a vast amount of vocabulary to choose, if you're hearing a certain sound in your head you know what to play to bring that out. You don't want to sound like your'e running the scales up and down, but as musical phrases.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[Spin Doctor]

Well Haslip uses pentatonics a lot... really a lot... matter fact, most solo's Iv'e heard him play are almost all minor pentatonic stuff. You don't have go outside when you use pentatonics. For instance over an Eb maj 7#11 you can play, Eb maj pent, Fmaj pent, Cmin pent, Bb maj, Gmin pent, Dmin pent. And with those you have all the different sound shapes from every scale degree of the pentatonics. And as far as bebop scales go, you have tremendous possibilities for soloing over changes. I see scales as part of one's vocabulary, what you're really looking for is phrasing and thematic development, an using parts of the scales, all of the scale, ascending, descending, broken thirds, four note groupings, hexitonics. tritonics, etc... Scales just give you a vast amount of vocabulary to choose, if you're hearing a certain sound in your head you know what to play to bring that out. You don't want to sound like your'e running the scales up and down, but as musical phrases.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

Yeah, Haslip does use a lot of pentatonics, but to me, pentatonics are typically diatonic to a key or key center. I guess what I meant to say is that he tends to use the scales, modes, arpeggios and pentatonics that are diatonic to a key center vice playing a lot of non-diatonic notes.

I generally use a lot of scale based forms in my solos. I am pretty familiar with broken 3rds, broken 6ths, alternating broken 3rds and 6ths, and the rest you mentioned above, in every permutation. Haven't done much with the 6 note hexatonic stuff yet though. Some stuff I'm more fluent with than others. I use a lot of pentatonics also. I have a pretty good handle on manipulating scale forms, I think, for an amateur player.

I was just thinking about how to add more color to what I'm doing and also, work on a cleaner execution that has a good arc.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. It's only my amateur beginner bassist attempt to find some "soloing" notes to play over the G7Alt chord.
I have no idea if it's correct. Take it as a comic relief.

This morning I tried to find those "main" notes for the G7Alt chord.
I took David Hilton's b7 - F, George Russell's parent scale root - B (Cb), Ab and Eb - because it's the root of Ab melodic minor and the 5th.
I would start with David's suggestion - F!

Next, I've expanded my note choice in the same position.
What's interesting, due to my "deaf" ears and amateur musician status, I really liked the "non-scale" note, F#/Gb(???).
Here is my next choice of notes in the same position.

When I got familiar with the notes in that position, I've ventured into some higher areas of the registry.
Once again, that a la "bebop dominant scale note" - F#/Gb still sounded OK to me.

Here is my concocted exercise in order to get used to those notes.
It has no musical value! It's just an attempt to search for the notes that could be used with the G7Alt chord.

I have highlighted that "bebop dominant" note - Gb/F#.

The following is a part of my exercise that I cannot play - I don't have enough technique for it.
I wish I could play it.

Here is the sound of those notes used with G7Alt from GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...6/?temp_hash=558f1f8defe5f52ec80b70523fb0d2bd

 

[Whousedtoplay]

P.S. I promise it's my last "voluminous" post in this thread.
P.S.2. It's only my amateur vision about the notes suitable playing over the G7Alt chord. Please, check with your teacher or youtube videos, or internet courses, etc...
P.S.3. It's only my beginner amateur "ideas" for those who are temporarily self-taught(!) and like spending time with the bass guitar.

I use the following notes as the G7Alt chord.

While noodling with my bass, I've "discovered" that "almost" all notes from the Db/C# Mixolydian scale/mode are suitable for that G7Alt chord.

I say, "Almost" because there is one note that my (only my) ears accepts as "good" but it's not on the G altered scale. I've mentioned about it yesterday. It's the note F#/Gb.
What's strange, that there are a lot of other "strange" notes but only that "bebop dominant"(???) F#Gb note from the G altered scale sounds "appropriate" to my ears.

(As we learned yesterday, the most appropriate scale to play over the G7Alt chord is Ab melodic minor with all its modes, like Super Locrian.)

Here is/are the bass fretboard diagram/s with my position/s of that Db/C# Mixolydian scale.

My favorite fingering in that position of the same.
I've used a question mark for that "in question" note - F#/Gb.

As an amateur beginner bassist, I'm fascinated with the "architectural possibilities" of the "broken-interval" Db/C# Mixolydian scale.

Or the following "broken-interval-architecture."

In short.
I have some "established" positions with "good"/suitable (and verified) notes to "solo" over the G7Alt chord - all of the above, plus (the main one) from my yesterday's posting.

As an amateur bassist and a complete "soloist" beginner, I can "push"/play any notes from my selected positions and it should sound OK (to my ears.) The rhythmic phrasing I've left up to practicing bass players.

Here is my lame attempt called, "Etude for Finding G7Alt Notes".
Sorry for some "strange rhythmic notation" in Bar 11 and Bar 12; therefore,
Bars 13, 14, 15, and 16 have only quarter notes.

And, as always, the sound clip from Guitar Pro.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=8bb5c91984675c14d6b380966aff47f1

Here is just a comping backup without any "soloing" instrument for anyone to practice.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=8bb5c91984675c14d6b380966aff47f1

 

[davidhilton]

P.S. I promise it's my last "voluminous" post in this thread.
P.S.2. It's only my amateur vision about the notes suitable playing over the G7Alt chord. Please, check with your teacher or youtube videos, or internet courses, etc...
P.S.3. It's only my beginner amateur "ideas" for those who are temporarily self-taught(!) and like spending time with the bass guitar.

I use the following notes as the G7Alt chord.
View attachment 1141501

While noodling with my bass, I've "discovered" that "almost" all notes from the Db/C# Mixolydian scale/mode are suitable for that G7Alt chord.

I say, "Almost" because there is one note that my (only my) ears accepts as "good" but it's not on the G altered scale. I've mentioned about it yesterday. It's the note F#/Gb.
What's strange, that there are a lot of other "strange" notes but only that "bebop dominant"(???) F#Gb note from the G altered scale sounds "appropriate" to my ears.

(As we learned yesterday, the most appropriate scale to play over the G7Alt chord is Ab melodic minor with all its modes, like Super Locrian.)

Here is/are the bass fretboard diagram/s with my position/s of that Db/C# Mixolydian scale.
View attachment 1141511

My favorite fingering in that position of the same.
I've used a question mark for that "in question" note - F#/Gb.
View attachment 1141512

As an amateur beginner bassist, I'm fascinated with the "architectural possibilities" of the "broken-interval" Db/C# Mixolydian scale.
View attachment 1141513 View attachment 1141514
Or the following "broken-interval-architecture."
View attachment 1141521
In short.
I have some "established" positions with "good"/suitable (and verified) notes to "solo" over the G7Alt chord - all of the above, plus (the main one) from my yesterday's posting.
View attachment 1141522

As an amateur bassist and a complete "soloist" beginner, I can "push"/play any notes from my selected positions and it should sound OK (to my ears.) The rhythmic phrasing I've left up to practicing bass players.

Here is my lame attempt called, "Etude for Finding G7Alt Notes".
Sorry for some "strange rhythmic notation" in Bar 11 and Bar 12; therefore,
Bars 13, 14, 15, and 16 have only quarter notes.

View attachment 1141524 View attachment 1141525

And, as always, the sound clip from Guitar Pro.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=8bb5c91984675c14d6b380966aff47f1

Here is just a comping backup without any "soloing" instrument for anyone to practice.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...2/?temp_hash=8bb5c91984675c14d6b380966aff47f1

"While noodling with my bass, I've "discovered" that "almost" all notes from the Db/C# Mixolydian scale/mode are suitable for that G7Alt chord." Thats because G7alt and Db7#11 are basically the same chord. Db7 is the tritone sub for G7. Both the alt scale- G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, F, and the Db7 lydian b7- Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, Cb, come from the same parent scale of Ab mel minor.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[Whousedtoplay]

"While noodling with my bass, I've "discovered" that "almost" all notes from the Db/C# Mixolydian scale/mode are suitable for that G7Alt chord." Thats because G7alt and Db7#11 are basically the same chord. Db7 is the tritone sub for G7. Both the alt scale- G, Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, F, and the Db7 lydian b7- Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, Cb, come from the same parent scale of Ab mel minor.
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

Thank you for you comment.

This morning, I decided to add some, kind of, double stops (or not) for the G7Alt chord.
I can play it as double stops or just as single notes - Bb (A string) and Gb(G string), B natural(A string) and Bb(G string), etc...

Here is the fretboard of those double stops in the high registry.

Here is a short and simple noodling exercise with DStops for G7Alt.

And here is a sound clip of that exercise from GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/g7alt-cs2-dstops-mp3.1142665/

 

[davidhilton]

Thank you for you comment.

This morning, I decided to add some, kind of, double stops (or not) for the G7Alt chord.
I can play it as double stops or just as single notes - Bb (A string) and Gb(G string), B natural(A string) and Bb(G string), etc...

Here is the fretboard of those double stops in the high registry.
View attachment 1142657


Here is a short and simple noodling exercise with DStops for G7Alt.
View attachment 1142660 View attachment 1142661
And here is a sound clip of that exercise from GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/g7alt-cs2-dstops-mp3.1142665/

This is unadulterated G7alt, I just laid down a bass line with the groove, then overdubbed a solo over that. I tried to it keep simple. Can't access my Logic files so I tried garageband for the first time. No Idea how to mix on it, and I need to change my strings, and I have no idea how I came to those effects, ... hahahaha!
www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This is unadulterated G7alt, I just laid down a bass line with the groove

I"ve really(!) enjoyed your comping spacious bass groove with intricate rhythmic displacements that perfectly matched all that moody soloing "exploring the unknown corners of our nebulous universe".
(It's somewhere in the same domain as Animation (with R.I.P. Bob Belden, sax/flute) last album - Machine Language with Bill Laswell on the bass.
I've noticed that you are not afraid to use any chromatic notes - C or E, etc... - in your solo.
In one spot, I've heard a double stop M2 - Bb(G string) and Ab (D string).
Maybe, it's due to your use of a lot of reverb, but I decided to add it to my Ab Melodic Minor or G7Alt "architectural design".

Here is a simple exercise with those double/triple stops.
Nothing rhythmically interesting, just getting used to those stops on the fretboard.

And here is a sound clip from GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=aa09973e894fe73fea8af5f29155684b

 

[davidhilton]

I"ve really(!) enjoyed your comping spacious bass groove with intricate rhythmic displacements that perfectly matched all that moody soloing "exploring the unknown corners of our nebulous universe".
(It's somewhere in the same domain as Animation (with R.I.P. Bob Belden, sax/flute) last album - Machine Language with Bill Laswell on the bass.
I've noticed that you are not afraid to use any chromatic notes - C or E, etc... - in your solo.
In one spot, I've heard a double stop M2 - Bb(G string) and Ab (D string).
Maybe, it's due to your use of a lot of reverb, but I decided to add it to my Ab Melodic Minor or G7Alt "architectural design".
View attachment 1143456 View attachment 1143457 View attachment 1143458 View attachment 1143459 View attachment 1143460 View attachment 1143461 View attachment 1143462 View attachment 1143463

Here is a simple exercise with those double/triple stops.
Nothing rhythmically interesting, just getting used to those stops on the fretboard.
View attachment 1143464 View attachment 1143465
View attachment 1143466
And here is a sound clip from GP.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=aa09973e894fe73fea8af5f29155684b

Ha! There really was no thought or prep going recording this, I'm just playing over a G7alt'. My soloing on it was kept very simple, I think I was just trying to play some melodies and develop some themes. Also since there's a bass line I really couldn't go too far into the lower range or it would just get muddy, because usually when I solo at gigs with my trio I'm exploring all the range of my bass (Nordstrand nj5). As far as intricate rhythmic displacements, I'm not sure about that man, haha. And as far as chromaticism, yeah that's a given. When I get logic up again I'll do some more examples if anyone is interested. www.basslessonslosangeles.com

 

[Whousedtoplay]

exploring all the range of my bass (Nordstrand nj5)

Just jealous...

Two years ago, when I picked up my bass again and even tried to learn how to "solo", I would record long clips of some accompaniment - the drums, bass, even the keyboard, then, I would play some notes over those chords.
Mostly, it was just one chord. drool

Also since there's a bass line I really couldn't go too far into the lower range or it would just get muddy

Oh, yeah. I totally understand it. When I try to record a bass-line (on JB) and then, add some "improvising" line with the same JB, it takes a lot of time to "unmuddy" the mix, even both bass-lines - comping and "soloing" - are in different registers.
Here is a two-year old comping to practice the C melodic minor scale - CmMaj7.
(If we follow the same logic of alt chords, then, it should be C melodic minor scale - B7Alt.)

As an amateur pop musician, my bass-line is straightforward without any intricacies of your rhythmic spaciousness.
P.S. Also, I see/hear that one CmMaj7 chord as a live and active body.


https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=05fa60d46241442559aab9994e6ef7c2

 

[AngelCrusher]

Check this web-site.
www.bruceeskovitz.com
View attachment 1139551
View attachment 1139550

View attachment 1139555

Funny thing about all of this is it took two articles to say the same thing - When you encounter a Dominant with a #11, You can play a Mixolydian with a #11, which is the Lydian Dominant.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Funny thing about all of this is it took two articles to say the same thing - When you encounter a Dominant with a #11, You can play a Mixolydian with a #11, which is the Lydian Dominant.

I'm reading ""Jazz Theory I 5th edition"
by Hiroaki Honshuku
New England Conservatory.
Here is an excerpt from that book about "Avoid" notes.
(It's all about that "b9th".)

Now.
Let's look at G7Alt chord built on the altered scale (from Wikipedia):

"The altered chord's harmony is built on the altered scale, which includes all the alterations:

• root
• ♭9 (=♭2)
• ♯9 (=♯2 or ♭3)
• 3
• ♯11 (=♯4 or ♭5)
• ♭13 (=♯5)
• ♭7"

It looks like we have two(2) b9th intervals from G altered scale.

According to the book from above, it should be "Avoid Notes", but to my ears those "avoid notes" sound so good.