Mesa 212 and 215 subway cabs.

[Rex Renolds]

Hey Lowenders.

I’ve got a Mesa 212 and 215 on order. I plan to demo both and then possibly purchase a second matching cab of the one I like best. I do usually bi-amp through a QSC PLX 3102 two channel/stereo power amp. I’m currently crossing over my at 500hz. Top cab gets 500hz and above with the super high frequencies cut. The bottom cab gets 500hz and below with the sub and low lows cut (cut up to 40-50hz) something like that.

I have been using this set up with 2 front ported orange 115 cabs loaded with Eminence kappalite 3015‘s. These are both 8ohm cabs and each cab was on a separate channel. (Each cab was getting about 500 watts a piece @8ohms)
This was the bigger gig rig.

I have recently purchased 2 tech 21 deuce deluxe FRFR power cabs with extension cabs. These are loaded with full range 12 inch speakers I assume. (Anyone know frequency range on the speakers loaded in these?) anyway these Deuce Deluxe’s sound pretty killer and have some handy features.

I’m running a compressor into the Tech 21 geddy pedal that has the separate deep and a high outputs. I’m running the low output of the pedal to one Deuce Deluxe stack and the high output of the pedal to the second Deuce Deluxe stack. Both signals are additionally being crossed over at 500hz (high- 500hz and above lows- 500hz and below) tweeters off. As I said before, sounds pretty killer more definition and punch. Idk if it’s the higher range of the FRFR speaker or because it’s a 12” speaker, but bass distortion just sounds better than what I can get out of a bass specific cab.

I was kinda set on 15’s for the big rig but am now open to 12’s for bass. I ordered both cabs to try. Anyone have a preference on either 215 or the 212?

I was thinking about getting a second Mesa cab to match what I decide to go with, but I’m also wondering if bi-amping the 215 for lows and the 212 for high would be a good idea? They are both 800 watt cabs @ 4ohms. The PLX would be capable of supplying 1000 wats per channel/cab with theses 4ohm cabs.

should I try mixing the 212 with the 215? Or go with two matching cabs? Either 2 215’s or 2 212’s?

I realize the Mesa’s are not FRFR. Am I expecting to much from the Mesa 212. Will I be disappointed expecting these to do what the deuce deluxe’s have been doing for me? What about phase cancellation using two drivers / two different sized drivers. I assume it’s not a big issue with bi-amping as I’m not shooting the same frequencies out of each driver? Just an assumption.

The Deuce Deluxe’s are great, just not sure they are going to work at smaller gigs with no P.A. support other than kick and vocals.

I know I asked a mouth full but I appreciate any info, experience or input you guys may have.

-Rex

 

[Wasnex]

Hey Lowenders.

I’ve got a Mesa 212 and 215 on order. I plan to demo both and then possibly purchase a second matching cab of the one I like best. I do usually bi-amp through a QSC PLX 3102 two channel/stereo power amp. I’m currently crossing over my at 500hz. Top cab gets 500hz and above with the super high frequencies cut. The bottom cab gets 500hz and below with the sub and low lows cut (cut up to 40-50hz) something like that.

I have been using this set up with 2 front ported orange 115 cabs loaded with Eminence kappalite 3015‘s. These are both 8ohm cabs and each cab was on a separate channel. (Each cab was getting about 500 watts a piece @8ohms)
This was the bigger gig rig.

I have recently purchased 2 tech 21 deuce deluxe FRFR power cabs with extension cabs. These are loaded with full range 12 inch speakers I assume. (Anyone know frequency range on the speakers loaded in these?) anyway these Deuce Deluxe’s sound pretty killer and have some handy features.

I’m running a compressor into the Tech 21 geddy pedal that has the separate deep and a high outputs. I’m running the low output of the pedal to one Deuce Deluxe stack and the high output of the pedal to the second Deuce Deluxe stack. Both signals are additionally being crossed over at 500hz (high- 500hz and above lows- 500hz and below) tweeters off. As I said before, sounds pretty killer more definition and punch. Idk if it’s the higher range of the FRFR speaker or because it’s a 12” speaker, but bass distortion just sounds better than what I can get out of a bass specific cab.

I was kinda set on 15’s for the big rig but am now open to 12’s for bass. I ordered both cabs to try. Anyone have a preference on either 215 or the 212?

I was thinking about getting a second Mesa cab to match what I decide to go with, but I’m also wondering if bi-amping the 215 for lows and the 212 for high would be a good idea? They are both 800 watt cabs @ 4ohms. The PLX would be capable of supplying 1000 wats per channel/cab with theses 4ohm cabs.

should I try mixing the 212 with the 215? Or go with two matching cabs? Either 2 215’s or 2 212’s?

I realize the Mesa’s are not FRFR. Am I expecting to much from the Mesa 212. Will I be disappointed expecting these to do what the deuce deluxe’s have been doing for me? What about phase cancellation using two drivers / two different sized drivers. I assume it’s not a big issue with bi-amping as I’m not shooting the same frequencies out of each driver? Just an assumption.

The Deuce Deluxe’s are great, just not sure they are going to work at smaller gigs with no P.A. support other than kick and vocals.

I know I asked a mouth full but I appreciate any info, experience or input you guys may have.

-Rex

I suggest trying each of the Subways full range, and choosing the model you like best. Actually Agedhorse designed them so the 215 and 212 should work well together.

Biamping is typically best when you have hand selected drivers to specifically cover certain frequency ranges.

I have done quite a bit of biamping.

Started with a SVT into an 810 for the lows and a Fender Twin Reverb pushing JBL E120s for the mids and highs. I also ran some cabs loaded with EVM18Bs in small ported boxes in place of the 810.

For fun I biamped just the pair of EVM18Bs, just to see what would happen. I wouldn't say it sounded bad, but there was no real benefit, and I gave up some low end performance.

Second biamp rig was a GK 800RB pushing a Bag End S15D for the lows and a Ramsa WSA200 pa cab for the mids and highs. This was the clearest and most articulate rig I have ever played through, but no fat on the bottom. The S15D is very lean on the low end, but that's okay with me.

By all means try biamping, but I think there is a good chance you will prefer running these cabs full range.

Have fun and good luck!

 

[MattZilla]

From what I’ve read of Señor Horse’s writing, the two should sound nearly identical, with one simply pushing 1.25x as much air and taking up about that much more space in the back of the van.

I like the idea of a 415 column for the lows & mids and then sending the highs with a board of effects off to something else down on the floor tilted up, but I’m 6’ and having the highest bass driver near my skull is always nicer than having it at my chest or at my knee.

 

[Rex Renolds]

I suggest trying each of the Subways full range, and choosing the model you like best. Actually Agedhorse designed them so the 215 and 212 should work well together.

Biamping is typically best when you have hand selected drivers to specifically cover certain frequency ranges.

I have done quite a bit of biamping.

Started with a SVT into an 810 for the lows and a Fender Twin Reverb pushing JBL E120s for the mids and highs. I also ran some cabs loaded with EVM18Bs in small ported boxes in place of the 810.

For fun I biamped just the pair of EVM18Bs, just to see what would happen. I wouldn't say it sounded bad, but there was no real benefit, and I gave up some low end performance.

Second biamp rig was a GK 800RB pushing a Bag End S15D for the lows and a Ramsa WSA200 pa cab for the mids and highs. This was the clearest and most articulate rig I have ever played through, but no fat on the bottom. The S15D is very lean on the low end, but that's okay with me.

By all means try biamping, but I think there is a good chance you will prefer running these cabs full range.

Have fun and good luck!

sounds like You’ve been there and done it! I really appreciate this advice, especially from someone that has done as much bi-amping as you have. So basically what you’re telling me is, screw bi-amping with these cabs? Put the PLX in bridge mode, get two 215’s, hook them together to create a 2 ohm load, switch the geddy pedal so the high and low sections are mixed out of one output, and let both cabs rip full range? Will there be issues with comb filtering or phase cancellation by running four 15” drivers in full range in close proximity to each other?

Intriguing stuff!

From what I’ve read of Señor Horse’s writing, the two should sound nearly identical, with one simply pushing 1.25x as much air and taking up about that much more space in the back of the van.

I like the idea of a 415 column for the lows & mids and then sending the highs with a board of effects off to something else down on the floor tilted up, but I’m 6’ and having the highest bass driver near my skull is always nicer than having it at my chest or at my knee.

Thanks for the reply man, so two 215’s? I sing and play. I am also a midget. 5’6”. I use IEM’s, would sending highs to the IEM’s essentially be the same as running to floor wedges? I’m only really running cabs to feel air moving and because the rest of the band likes it. I’d still like the best possible stage sound from them however. Sounds like Geddy runs lows and highs from the pedal or rack to front of house and just the high channel to his IEM’s. I’m not obsessed with sounding like Geddy or anything, I’m just trying to figure out the best way to route this pedal and rig.

thanks guys
-Rex

 

[Wasnex]

sounds like You’ve been there and done it! I really appreciate this advice, especially from someone that has done as much bi-amping as you have. So basically what you’re telling me is, screw bi-amping with these cabs? Put the PLX in bridge mode, get two 215’s, hook them together to create a 2 ohm load, switch the geddy pedal so the high and low sections are mixed out of one output, and let both cabs rip full range? Will there be issues with comb filtering or phase cancellation by running four 15” drivers in full range in close proximity to each other?

Intriguing stuff!



Thanks for the reply man, so two 215’s? I sing and play. I am also a midget. 5’6”. I use IEM’s, would sending highs to the IEM’s essentially be the same as running to floor wedges? I’m only really running cabs to feel air moving and because the rest of the band likes it. I’d still like the best possible stage sound from them however. Sounds like Geddy runs lows and highs from the pedal or rack to front of house and just the high channel to his IEM’s. I’m not obsessed with sounding like Geddy or anything, I’m just trying to figure out the best way to route this pedal and rig.

thanks guys
-Rex

Per the spec sheet, the 3102 only does 4 ohms bridged, so do not bridge it into 2 ohms. But it's 1,000W per channel at 4 ohms so plenty to push a pair of 215 or 212 Subway cabs.

The best thing to do is try it both ways and see which you prefer. But if you are after maximum performance, I think you will prefer full range.

 

[musicman556]

I only have a limited amount of experience running split high-low rigs and definitely not enough to weigh in with anything of meaning.

All the same, I'm really interested to hear about your experience with the 212 and 215!

I have the feeling that even if you run them both full range, you're going to end up liking them stacked with the 212 on top for extra "cut." That opinion is purely based on what I've read about the Subway 12s here on TB. I haven't played a Subway 12 myself, as I just have a 115 and 210. I do still plan on getting a 112 later this summer.

 

[agedhorse]

Do NOT bridge your amp into these cabinets. With 2 cabinets it presents an illegal load to the amp and could damage the amp (your amp is not rated for a 2 ohm bridged load). For a single cabinet there is way too much power and could damage your cabinet.

There is no phase coherency issues between any of the cabinets in the Subway line, so that’s not going to be an issue.

In general, biamping has minimal impact unless your are processing the channels much differently or are distorting one of the two channels. Even then, I suggest trying the rig configured full range as you still might prefer that.

 

[Rex Renolds]

Good looking out guys. The 3102 does in fact only do 4 ohms bridged. I’ve never used it in bridge mode so I was just assuming it would do 2ohm bridged. So it sounds like the everyone is saying ditch bi-amping and try them full range. I know I’ve already asked this but is there any benefit or reason to go 212 and 215 over two 215’s? MattZilla said in a earlier post that the 212 and 215 are very similar sounding. The biggest difference being physical size.

Just want to know if I should go 212 and 215 or two 215’s. I have the order on hold now until I decide. Figured if I can get enough input from you guys I could potential save some shipping costs by not having to Have a shoot out between the 212 and 215. I had planned to order both and ship back the one I didn’t like as much in exchange for a matching cab of the winner. Sounds like from what I’m hearing though, there isn’t really much of a difference between the two different cabs.

-Rex

Do NOT bridge your amp into these cabinets. With 2 cabinets it presents an illegal load to the amp and could damage the amp (your amp is not rated for a 2 ohm bridged load). For a single cabinet there is way too much power and could damage your cabinet.

There is no phase coherency issues between any of the cabinets in the Subway line, so that’s not going to be an issue.

In general, biamping has minimal impact unless your are processing the channels much differently or are distorting one of the two channels. Even then, I suggest trying the rig configured full range as you still might prefer that.

Thanks for the reply agedhorse. I am assuming you are the member that has had a hand in the engineering of these cabs? I was actually on harmony central last night looking up some unrelated material and came across a few replies you had made over there. Good info there, you seem to know your stuff and have the credentials to prove it. Thank you for the info about phase coherency with these cabs. great to know there shouldn’t be issues. I do typically distort the high-end signal and leave the low end relatively unprocessed. I don’t use crazy distortion on the high end, just a bit to get it a little more aggressive sounding. Bi-amping has always seemed to get me better definition when using this method. Sounds like I should be able to get rid of the crossover’s I’m using now and run the geddy pedal straight into the PLX 3102 full range? (No crossover filters used).

Any suggestions from you on what two cabs to get? 212 and 215 or two 215’s?
it would be nice to have an opinion straight from the horses mouth.

-Rex

 

[agedhorse]

There are significant differences in the cabinets, both the low frequency extension as well as the mid voicing and texture.

I think it’s a good idea (in general) to try both, your personal tastes are going to be unique and different from mine and others.

 

[MattZilla]

MattZilla said in a earlier post that the 212 and 215 are very similar sounding.

only from what my puny head remembered reading. AH here says they’re different sounding, they must be.

I likely wouldn’t bother trying the 212 because of a hillbilly preference for a tall stack, and would likely be missing out.

Now I’m curious. I like my heavy old Ampeg rigs, but I’m becoming more and more Mesa Curious the more time I spend on TB.

 

[Rex Renolds]

There are significant differences in the cabinets, both the low frequency extension as well as the mid voicing and texture.

I think it’s a good idea (in general) to try both, your personal tastes are going to be unique and different from mine and others.

Ok cool, thanks aged horse. I appreciate your response. I was pretty much thinking along those lines but was hoping you would influence me one way or the other lol. I’ll put in the order for both the 215 and 212 and demo them both.

-Rex

only from what my puny head remembered reading. AH here says they’re different sounding, they must be.

I likely wouldn’t bother trying the 212 because of a hillbilly preference for a tall stack, and would likely be missing out.

Now I’m curious. I like my heavy old Ampeg rigs, but I’m becoming more and more Mesa Curious the more time I spend on TB.

I too enjoy a tall stack! I like my whole body to be pushed. I’m going to have to give both the 215 and 212 a try. I’m kinda leaning toward two 215’s but have to try the 212 after what I have experienced recently with the 12” drivers in the Deuce Deluxe’s

-Rex

 

[Lo Ki]

Just wondering why you didn't like your Orange cabs? Was thinking of checking out some 12's or the 15's. Never tried neither one, but I used to play a Terror with a 2x10 & it was great (I use a Sansamp)!

 

[agedhorse]

Ok cool, thanks aged horse. I appreciate your response. I was pretty much thinking along those lines but was hoping you would influence me one way or the other lol. I’ll put in the order for both the 215 and 212 and demo them both.

-Rex

Be sure to share your impressions, it will be helpful to others too.

 

[baxter_x]

Be sure to share your impressions, it will be helpful to others too.

Oh yeah!

 

[Wasnex]

Any suggestions from you on what two cabs to get? 212 and 215 or two 215’s?
it would be nice to have an opinion straight from the horses mouth.

-Rex

It's really going to come down to the type of tone you want. I get the impression a lot of people prefer the 15s, but you might like the 12s. If you can't try before you buy, there are plenty of threads to wade through. Try to read through to the objective content, which is not easy. It helps if you actually know what you want to begin with, which is also not necessarily as easy as it sounds .

Good Luck!

 

[bdplaid]

you seem to know your stuff and have the credentials to prove it.

He designed most of the Subway line, as well as much of the classic Genz Benz micro series.

Speaking as a reformed bi-amper, trying to apply that to the Subway cabs is a fool's errand. Think of everything in full range, and get one or two Subway heads, one or two Subway cabs, depending on how you want to divide your signal.

Biamping was conceived in the old days to mitigate distortion, and modern equipment just doesn't have those problems anymore. Even gk has moved away from biamping in their legacy line of cabs.

If I really wanted to split the signal for effects use, what comes to my mind is a full range 215 run effect less, and a 112 on top also full range but with effects. If you use two Subway amps for this, you have as many ways to screw up the signal as I have done in my career.

 

[Wasnex]

Biamping was conceived in the old days to mitigate distortion, and modern equipment just doesn't have those problems anymore. Even gk has moved away from biamping in their legacy line of cabs.

GKs last version of biamping was to manage distortion rather than mitigate. The idea was to keep the tweeter clean, while allowing the Boost circuit to send distortion to the woofer.

 

[bdplaid]

GKs last version of biamping was to manage distortion rather than mitigate. The idea was to keep the tweeter clean, while allowing the Boost circuit to send distortion to the woofer.

OK, thanks. My comments were about biamping generally, and I didn't know GK had a different slant on it.

Edit: I did notice a post by RAG himself referring to the Neo 4 cabs using 2 pole rather than 4 pole Speakons. That means they're not wired internally for biamping.

 

[Wasnex]

Edit: I did notice a post by RAG himself referring to the Neo 4 cabs using 2 pole rather than 4 pole Speakons. That means they're not wired internally for biamping.

Yes as you previously stated, it appears that GK has abandoned biamping. The RB series amps, and also the RBH and series 3 and earlier Neo cabs could be run in biamp or full range mode. The RB series amps have a built in HPF on the tweeter at 5kHz. The woofer can be run full range or a 5kHz LPF can be switched in. The RBH and series 1-3 Neo cabs have a switch so they can be run in biamp mode using a NL4, or flip the switch and the have a built in 5kHz HPF for the tweeter.

I believe the newer amps originally shipped with NL4 output jacks, but recent amps have started shipping with NL2 jacks. NL4 jacks accept NL2 and NL4 plugs. NL2 jacks only accept NL2 plugs. IMHO this seems like a rather odd choice. AFAIK GK is the only company with NL2 jacks.

 

[Rex Renolds]

Wow, Man. This community is super active! thanks for all the great input guys. The order has been processed. got the 212 and the 215 both on the was to demo. Figure its the best way to get an opinion on both cabs

-Rex

Just wondering why you didn't like your Orange cabs? Was thinking of checking out some 12's or the 15's. Never tried neither one, but I used to play a Terror with a 2x10 & it was great (I use a Sansamp)!View attachment 4240715

In short, my orange cabs weigh as much as a Volkswagen bug. great cabs, super robust just want to try out something new. I really like mesa stuff. "these have been recommended to me a few times" I really dig the shape of these cabs and I also wanted a set of 4ohm cabs. All the oranges I have are 8ohm. Please tell me that is you in the Boots!

I actually have a bunch of orange gear that's not being used if anyone is interested.

It's really going to come down to the type of tone you want. I get the impression a lot of people prefer the 15s, but you might like the 12s. If you can't try before you buy, there are plenty of threads to wade through. Try to read through to the objective content, which is not easy. It helps if you actually know what you want to begin with, which is also not necessarily as easy as it sounds .

Good Luck!

I decided to just order up both cabs to make an opinion. I've waded through pages and pages of posts on forums in the past. It can be great for tech info but as others have stated. I'm best to just try them out myself than be influenced by others that may be after something completely different than me.

Thanks for your replies Wasnex. much appreciated.

-Rex

He designed most of the Subway line, as well as much of the classic Genz Benz micro series.

Speaking as a reformed bi-amper, trying to apply that to the Subway cabs is a fool's errand. Think of everything in full range, and get one or two Subway heads, one or two Subway cabs, depending on how you want to divide your signal.

Biamping was conceived in the old days to mitigate distortion, and modern equipment just doesn't have those problems anymore. Even gk has moved away from biamping in their legacy line of cabs.

If I really wanted to split the signal for effects use, what comes to my mind is a full range 215 run effect less, and a 112 on top also full range but with effects. If you use two Subway amps for this, you have as many ways to screw up the signal as I have done in my career.

My apologies, I'm not super active on the forums. don't really know who is who. sorry if I came across disrespectful toward anyone. I'm all for getting away from bi-amping if I can man! I am by no means married to the idea. it's just seemed to work out for me in the past. There may be more guys out there still bi-amping than you think. just from what I've seen.

Why do you suggest using full range cabs over bass specific cabs when splitting the signal? I do typically run distortion on my top cab and clean on my bottom. (kinda why I dig the geddy pedal, it has two separate lines out. One line out for clean lows and one line out for highs and distortion. I was planning to to do the same with the mesa cabs. sounds like ill be able to run full range to both cabs from the geddy with distortion on the top cab with out having to crossover or filter frequencies for each cab.

-Rex

GKs last version of biamping was to manage distortion rather than mitigate. The idea was to keep the tweeter clean, while allowing the Boost circuit to send distortion to the woofer.

This actually sounds like a great idea. I never seem to use tweeters on cabs, I'm usually distorting on the high end and it always sounds like the tweeters are going to die lol. I can't imagine why. lol. What you are sayin GK is doing here sounds pretty interesting.

-Rex