Yeah… You better go back and read some more. I think you got some catching up to do, my friend. This has been covered about a bazillion times. It's the combination. It's all about the combination.
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Mesa Boogie Walkabout Mega-thread Part 10
- Thread starter Chef
- Start date
Al Kraft
Supporting Member
- May 2, 2016
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- Mesa Boogie beta product tester and player support
Although you could take this idea a touch further and let the DI/pre-amp version have an internal "black box" that while not a WA amp section would have modelling algorithms that could interact dynamically with the pre-amp and respond in a way that emulates the response and tonality of the WA itself only at line level. The modeling would likely need to be fairly sophisticated to simulate/capture all the interdependencies of the relevant variables and significant component behaviors, including what drives those behaviors during WA operation (phase, frequency, time, operating temperature (?), etc.).Yeah… You better go back and read some more. I think you got some catching up to do, my friend. This has been covered about a bazillion times. It's the combination. It's all about the combination.
I suspect Andy has already thought about this as it would be part of the process of trying to understand what makes a WA a WA and how one could scale those interactions. Creating a "modeling component" between the WA pre-amp and a bigger amp section might not be the best way to go for a number of reasons. However, a DI/pre-amp product might allow for some healthy R&D on fleshing out that "transfer function" and a higher probability of creating a very affordable, broad market appeal item. My gut felling is that the business case makes all the work for something like a nextgen WA with its likely price point and unique characteristics a tough sell.
A DI /pre-amp might be a less "pure WA" solution, but one that is close enough to the mark with a better chance of seeing store shelves. Tech 21 has done well building similar boxes and the latest Mesa Subway DI/pre-amp, while not a D-800/800+ is still putting smiles on a lot of faces.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,655
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Sorry Al. We may agree on the 'Eagle Scout Rollabout' but not the modeling thing. No sir. It ain't there yet. Too opaque. Even the agedhorse says it's all about the combination. Mesa discovered this. Why do you think the DI is at the end? And why there isn’t a 600 watt WA?
FWIW, I have some of those modeling thingies (pedals & software) and they're great for what they are and they can get you from point A to point B with a switch of the MIDI but… they're emulations and simulations. And, nothing against Tech21, I've got one of those in my gig bag too–as a backup (never had to use it), but as the song goes, "Ain't nothing like the real thing, baby."
Let’s get back to discussing speaker cabs. I’ve got 12’s dancing in my dreams.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,655
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Wait, we already have this with the Subway 112... or are you meaning a stacked 212?12's, Boss. Stacked 12's.
Yessir. From page 119 - later I called it the "Eagle Scout" or "Rollabout."
A high sensitivity, 4 ohm; stacked, stackable 2x12 that ain't a back-breaker; voiced like the Scout; that has casters on the back with a handle and that little passive radiator that makes it sound like a 4x12, er… 3x12; and a high freq. driver.
agedhorse,
Breakdown:
High sensitivity, 4 ohm: The WA needs that to develop it's full potential.
Stacked, stackable 2x12: Horizontal dispersion. Dump the phase cancellation issues.
Back-breaker: Kinda goes without saying. Around 60 lbs. too much guys?
Voiced like a Scout: I love this cab. From what I've gathered from this forum thru the years, I'd have to spend a lot more money to try to do better than the Scout and it sounds GOOD.
Casters & retractable handle: We gotta move it easily. Oh yeah, and put some handles on the sides.
Passive radiator: Make it sound big! Like the way the Scout makes everybody's jaw drop when they hear it for the first time.
High freq. driver: Kinda goes without saying.
I see evolution, rather than revolution. The emulation tech ain't there yet for me. And, if you can't make it more powerful, give it the potential to do the absolute best it can. And market the DI! It's incredible!!!
I really don't know what to do about the 'clean' folks. I think that's where the new amp is at. I really, truly do feel for them but this amp doesn't have the headroom to run like that. If it were me, I'd PM them and pick their brains. Funky, jazzy, clean and country on the horizon…
Many, many thanks for your diligence. I truly do appreciate it!!!
Breakdown:
High sensitivity, 4 ohm: The WA needs that to develop it's full potential.
Stacked, stackable 2x12: Horizontal dispersion. Dump the phase cancellation issues.
Back-breaker: Kinda goes without saying. Around 60 lbs. too much guys?
Voiced like a Scout: I love this cab. From what I've gathered from this forum thru the years, I'd have to spend a lot more money to try to do better than the Scout and it sounds GOOD.
Casters & retractable handle: We gotta move it easily. Oh yeah, and put some handles on the sides.
Passive radiator: Make it sound big! Like the way the Scout makes everybody's jaw drop when they hear it for the first time.
High freq. driver: Kinda goes without saying.
I see evolution, rather than revolution. The emulation tech ain't there yet for me. And, if you can't make it more powerful, give it the potential to do the absolute best it can. And market the DI! It's incredible!!!
I really don't know what to do about the 'clean' folks. I think that's where the new amp is at. I really, truly do feel for them but this amp doesn't have the headroom to run like that. If it were me, I'd PM them and pick their brains. Funky, jazzy, clean and country on the horizon…
Many, many thanks for your diligence. I truly do appreciate it!!!
Last edited:
Al Kraft
Supporting Member
- May 2, 2016
- 10,768
- 40,440
- Disclosures
- Mesa Boogie beta product tester and player support
I agree it doesn't' fully deliver on the promise, but it might some day...and that day could be sooner rather than later. We use modeling techniques in aerospace design that have such a high degree of fidelity and realism that we can literally conduct virtual test flights that yield what high risk/cost testing used to. When it comes to music I'm not a "digital fan", I like analog, but I have no problem with a great analog signal path that was developed using digital modelling tools/techniques.
That said, a Subway-like/based/derivative 212 super cab (that can also unleash the full WA potential with serious volume) would be an outstanding product offering. I'm guessing D-800/800+ crowd would be pretty excited as well. Cool products and outstanding tone are important, but there has to be a compelling business case for something to make it into production - at face value the 212 idea looks promising to me.
Yeah I was disappointed to see that Mesa discontinued the Scout extension cabs. As I mentioned before, I've found the Subway cabs to be a much better sonic match for the D-800 than the Walkabout, specifically the high end. And I personally don't want to be bothered with the weight of the Powerhouse cabs. As it stands right now, Mesa's only "matched" cab for the WA is the combo cab. It would be great to see a couple updated WA cabs, maybe loaded with the Faital 12PR300 or 15PR400 or similar high-sensitivity drivers with the passive radiator, voiced to match the WA head.
You guys are talking about a high sensitivity, 212 to unleash more power from the WA ? Has anyone tried it with a Super Twin, Barefaced cab ? The sensitivity of the Barefaced cabs are supposed to be off the charts. BTW, I have tried the WA with my LDS, 212 cab, loaded with 3012HO drivers ( 100.5 db sensitivity ), and an 18Sound, XD125 tweeter, and guess what ? It still runs out of clean power at about 12 noon or so, on the Master, even with EQ as set flat. That's also when the low end starts the smooshy thing. I really think Andy has an impossible task before him.
Wouldn't it still run outta stream at the same mark on the dials. ..but it'd just be louder. ....thru a sensitive cab?
Yep. If I remember correctly it has something to do the volume pot taper (other amps have similar tapers) but that was discussed a LONG time ago. I'm not an engineer so I'll defer to the those in the know and who discussed it back in the day. Perhaps someone remembers where it is or agedhorse can shed some light…
Well, if you crave surgical room clean at wall crushing volume using a small to medium cab, I suggest you to simply sell the WA. It's not your best choice, probably and actually
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,963
- 5
- 220,655
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I don't think "wall crushing volume" is an accurate description for folks playing outdoor gigs and need a little more clean low end support on stage. I agree that these situations might not be the best choice for the WA and similar powered amps.
Al Kraft
Supporting Member
- May 2, 2016
- 10,768
- 40,440
- Disclosures
- Mesa Boogie beta product tester and player support
We've all likely played equipment that has it's limitations in terms of effectiveness/appropriateness for certain venues and applications. Often times its the very things we like about a piece of equipment in say a studio, small club or solo situation that might make it less than suitable on a large stage or outdoors. There's more than one reason folks starting mic'ing cabs/combos...you couldn't always get the voicing to scale up and still be the same.
Right, I love my WA but I keep my pre/power rig just for those sorts of occasions. It's a Yamaha PB-1 and a PLX 1104. By the way, I can get a tone that's fairly similar to my WA tone with that PB-1, albeit without the harmonics, bloom and squishy compression thing. The basic tone can get close though if you turn up the mids. I'm sure many will disagree but for me, it's a tone I really like and has enough headroom for big outdoor stages with bass-heavy music.
I'm sure the barefaced stuff is great but it doesn't seem like much of a stretch that Mesa might make an updated cab or two that's voiced to match the WA, especially since the only one they have is the 12" combo cab. And I personally have no need for the docking feature. A 50lb one-handle combo is not my idea of an easy carry.
I can tell you a Walkabout head sounds glorious through Barefaced cabs. However, I'd still need a biggish one to have giggable volume (like a Super Twin).
I fully agree and have posted (too) many times, that the ergonomics of the Walkabout combos is, frankly, dumb. One handle on top of a 50 lb box is simply stupid, and that's the reason why virtually every cab in bassdom that weighs 50lbs has dual side handles. The 50 lb 112 is, of course, carryable with the single top handle, but side handles would be faaaaar better. When they made the 65 lb 115 combo, the pathetic, forlorn handle on top was comical. In the past I asked Mesa if they'd build me a Walkabout combo cab with dual, spring-loaded side handles like they use on their cabs, but was declined. Recessed bar handles would be better (no potential for rattle). Having said all that, the combo cab does sound particularly sweet!
