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Mesa Madness - does it have to be this way?

#82
magic papa said:
As I understand pfschim wasn't talking about the output tranny (which WA has none of). My assumption was that he suggested that somehow a transformer-based power supply as opposed to a switching one would impact the the tone.

I agree that the output Tr in a tube circuit can impact the tone.
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Fair enough. But I'll tell you, I happen to agree with PF on that one. I've played several micros of different brands and their full-size "counterparts," and I've yet to hear a micro that sounds like the big iron amps and vice versa. I keep hearing that it's all in the design of the amp and not the power supply alone, but comparisons with not only Ampegs but GK's, Aguilars, and Edens tell me otherwise. And none of the micros I've played through where I haven't played their full size brethren sounds like any full-size amp I've played. That isn't to say they don't sound good...I have a couple and they rock quite well. But if they could make micros that sound like full size amps in every way, why aren't they doing it?
 
#84
JimmyM said:
Fair enough. But I'll tell you, I happen to agree with PF on that one. I've played several micros of different brands and their full-size "counterparts," and I've yet to hear a micro that sounds like the big iron amps and vice versa. I keep hearing that it's all in the design of the amp and not the power supply alone, but comparisons with not only Ampegs but GK's, Aguilars, and Edens tell me otherwise. And none of the micros I've played through where I haven't played their full size brethren sounds like any full-size amp I've played. That isn't to say they don't sound good...I have a couple and they rock quite well. But if they could make micros that sound like full size amps in every way, why aren't they doing it?
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Don't know. Perhaps they changed more than just the power sections in the micro versions. Many design decisions these days are driven by cost rather than tonal properties. It'd be interesting to open up a micro head and a "full" version and see what is different.

I tried various preamps (BBE, SVP, BDDI, Tone Hammer) with with a digital power amp and also plugging them to the power section of an M-Pulse. The only difference I encountered was that M-Pulse was substantially noisier than the digital one.

If there were other differences they were too subtle to notice. So I don't agree that putting a D-class power section on a decent preamp would destroy its tone.
 
#85
JimmyM said:
Fair enough. But I'll tell you, I happen to agree with PF on that one. I've played several micros of different brands and their full-size "counterparts," and I've yet to hear a micro that sounds like the big iron amps and vice versa. I keep hearing that it's all in the design of the amp and not the power supply alone, but comparisons with not only Ampegs but GK's, Aguilars, and Edens tell me otherwise. And none of the micros I've played through where I haven't played their full size brethren sounds like any full-size amp I've played. That isn't to say they don't sound good...I have a couple and they rock quite well. But if they could make micros that sound like full size amps in every way, why aren't they doing it?
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You have not played a Shuttle 9.0, it's an SVT spanker. A 5 pound pound girth monster with gription.
 
#86
Red Planet said:
You have not played a Shuttle 9.0, it's an SVT spanker. A 5 pound pound girth monster with gription.
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I don't think this addresses any part of JimmyM's comments.

What we were talking about was the difference between the full and micro heads, so to prove the point we would need to plug the Shuttle's preamp into a mosfet amp and conclude that the D-class section is terrible.

I believe the following statement was used: "OMG... I can't imagine anything worse". So such comparison should live up to it.
 
#87
You know, Andy used to say the GBE amps and the higher powered Shuttles were about equal in tones. The only Shuttle I played was a 6.0 and I'd agree that it was tighter than your average micro. But since I don't have any hands on with other Shuttles or GBE amps, I'll have to take him at his word. Still, I'm wondering how much of this is like the big SS vs tube war of the 70's, where SS engineers and enthusiasts insisted that nobody could tell the difference but we could and still can after all these decades. And since I find both technologies less to my liking than tube, I'm just not interested in spending the kind of money it takes to find out for sure ;)
 
#89
JimmyM said:
You know, Andy used to say the GBE amps and the higher powered Shuttles were about equal in tones. The only Shuttle I played was a 6.0 and I'd agree that it was tighter than your average micro. But since I don't have any hands on with other Shuttles or GBE amps, I'll have to take him at his word. Still, I'm wondering how much of this is like the big SS vs tube war of the 70's, where SS engineers and enthusiasts insisted that nobody could tell the difference but we could and still can after all these decades. And since I find both technologies less to my liking than tube, I'm just not interested in spending the kind of money it takes to find out for sure ;)
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I think tube amps sound different because they respond differently to SS. They are not linear (or not perfectly so), so they would introduce their own distortion that would colour the sound.

What I was talking about is comparing two linear, low noise amps. No clipping, no distortion. One mosfet and one digital. I don't believe anybody would be able to tell the difference.
 
#90
magic papa said:
so to prove the point we would need to plug the Shuttle's preamp into a mosfet amp and conclude that the D-class section is terrible.
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That distinction doesn't really work the way many people seem to think it does (blame ad copy, same as it ever was), since the vast majority of Class D amps also actually use MOSFETs in their output stages. Calling something a MOSFET amp doesn't tell you what class it operates in, in other words...;)
 
#92
Passinwind said:
That distinction doesn't really work the way many people seem to think it does (blame ad copy, same as it ever was), since the vast majority of Class D amps also actually use MOSFETs in their output stages. Calling something a MOSFET amp doesn't tell you what class it operates in, in other words...;)
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Yes, indeed. It was a mental shortcut. I meant A/B class or whatever Mesa puts in their SS amps. They call it "Tube Driven Power MOSFET’s,". Whatever that means ;-)
 
#93
Passinwind said:
That distinction doesn't really work the way many people seem to think it does (blame ad copy, same as it ever was), since the vast majority of Class D amps also actually use MOSFETs in their output stages. Calling something a MOSFET amp doesn't tell you what class it operates in, in other words...;)
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Correct. A MOSFET (metal oxide semiconductor field effect transistor) is just a type of transistor.
 

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