Mesa Subway 112 vs. Barefaced Super Midget

[NeonVomit]

Great review. I own the Sub 1x12 and 1x15, and have been curious about Barefaced.

My Subway stack can fit into the trunk of my Vauxhall Astra without showing a trace (don't even have to take the trunk cover away). So compact enough for me. They're a bit heavier than I would've wanted (yes, I'm nitpicking, because I can carry my entire rig in one trip from the car to the stage) but reading what you said about the BF's sides yielding when you push on it, I'll take something slightly bulkier (i.e. a truly earth-shattering 15kg) and built like a tank over that.

Sound-wise, I've discovered sticking a couple of beer crates under my rig helps eliminate boominess in more, uh, boomy, venues.

 

[mmbongo]

but reading what you said about the BF's sides yielding when you push on it, I'll take something slightly bulkier (i.e. a truly earth-shattering 15kg) and built like a tank over that.

Thanks, and nice stack!

And I should clarify about the flexing of the BF cab. The best way I can describe the construction of Barefaced cabs is there are two parts...the cabinet itself where the driver is mounted and the ports that are off to the side. The main part where the driver is does not flex at all. It is very well braced and is solid. The part where the ports are is like a big open slot with less bracing and that is where I can flex the wood. It does not affect the performance of the cab since there the woofer is not putting any pressure there. The BF cab is braced where it needs to be braced, in other words. However my opinion (whatever that's worth!) is that the BF cab could use extra bracing on the ports and especially in the corners of the ports. I can see those getting easily busted up.

This is where one of those famous tradeoffs in cabinet design comes in. The Barefaced uses a much thinner wood in order to get their lightweight profile. You can see in the side by side picture in my original post the difference in the thickness of the woods that Mesa uses vs. Barefaced. It's literally twice as thick, if not more. This is why the Mesa cabs weigh more and the Barefaced cabs weigh less. It's also why I would never worry about the Mesa cab getting busted or broken.

 

[NeonVomit]

For sure, they're rock-solid. I'm considering adding a 2x10 to my stack for live shows... my current stack just about can handle a full power metal band (2 guitars, keyboards, drums) on a big stage, but it's being pushed.

 

[Daniel Piper]

You should slap some tort on those crates!

Great review. I own the Sub 1x12 and 1x15, and have been curious about Barefaced.

My Subway stack can fit into the trunk of my Vauxhall Astra without showing a trace (don't even have to take the trunk cover away). So compact enough for me. They're a bit heavier than I would've wanted (yes, I'm nitpicking, because I can carry my entire rig in one trip from the car to the stage) but reading what you said about the BF's sides yielding when you push on it, I'll take something slightly bulkier (i.e. a truly earth-shattering 15kg) and built like a tank over that.

Sound-wise, I've discovered sticking a couple of beer crates under my rig helps eliminate boominess in more, uh, boomy, venues.

View attachment 2995011

Great rig!

 

[Tim1]

Great review. I own the Sub 1x12 and 1x15, and have been curious about Barefaced.

My Subway stack can fit into the trunk of my Vauxhall Astra without showing a trace (don't even have to take the trunk cover away). So compact enough for me. They're a bit heavier than I would've wanted (yes, I'm nitpicking, because I can carry my entire rig in one trip from the car to the stage) but reading what you said about the BF's sides yielding when you push on it, I'll take something slightly bulkier (i.e. a truly earth-shattering 15kg) and built like a tank over that.

Sound-wise, I've discovered sticking a couple of beer crates under my rig helps eliminate boominess in more, uh, boomy, venues.

View attachment 2995011

To be fair to Barefaced the construction is a major feature of their design, in terms of both tone and weight, and has had considerable research go into it. I have never heard or read of a Barefaced cabinet being damaged other than one having a corner smashed after severe mishandling in transit from the UK, which can happen to anyone. In fact Alex Claber (the director of Barefaced) has posted pics of himself jumping up and down on a cab. The construction is rock solid, to the extent that I often use a pair of the little One Tens to stand on when lifting heavy gear.
I certainly do not want to appear a BF apologist, which I am not, but it is important that generalisations and assumptions do not become read as fact after sufficient repetition on a forum such as this.

 

[mmbongo]

To be fair to Barefaced the construction is a major feature of their design, in terms of both tone and weight, and has had considerable research go into it. I have never heard or read of a Barefaced cabinet being damaged other than one having a corner smashed after severe mishandling in transit from the UK, which can happen to anyone. In fact Alex Claber (the director of Barefaced) has posted pics of himself jumping up and down on a cab. The construction is rock solid, to the extent that I often use a pair of the little One Tens to stand on when lifting heavy gear.
I certainly do not want to appear a BF apologist, which I am not, but it is important that generalisations and assumptions do not become read as fact after sufficient repetition on a forum such as this.

Yeah like I clarified, the main part of the cabinet is braced very well. It's where the ports are located where the wood can be flexed. Also just to be fair I bet you didn't see him jumping up and down on that part of the cabinet

 

[Tim1]

Yeah like I clarified, the main part of the cabinet is braced very well. It's where the ports are located where the wood can be flexed. Also just to be fair I bet you didn't see him jumping up and down on that part of the cabinet

Probably true, it was a while ago and not even sure specifically which cab it was. I just remember seeing the pic. I also seem to remember a picture of him lifting one of the Barefaced Eight 10s in one hand, which impressed me at the time.
I must admit that this thread has me seriously gassing to try out a Subway cab, such an obvious fit for my D800+ and I can keep the Barefaced 10s for my tube heads.
So many great options available for us bassists these days. I cannot remember having so many choices available, especially at the higher end of the market.

 

[Al Kraft]

Respectfully, I don't agree. Two speakers may be louder and produce more lows, but generally the resultant comb filtering and narrowing of the dispersion pattern significantly degrades the overall sound. I accept that you preferences are different than mine so, YMMV.

It may just be my own experience, but when you have two identical bass cabs (which aren't wired out of phase) stacked on top of each other the effects of comb filtering or any other acoustic issues are pretty much insignificant compared to the the benefits.

I think the pure physics argument is that any time you have two drivers producing identical frequencies separated by some distance you will experience comb filtering and may create or exacerbate reflected energy issues with room surfaces (e.g. floors, walls) depending on the total height of the speaker stack and layout of the speakers in that vertical space. However, for most 2 bass cab stacks, my experience has been that benefits always outweigh these other concerns.

 

[Wasnex]

It may just be my own experience, but when you have two bass identical cabs (which aren't wired out of phase) stacked on top of each other the effects of comb filtering or any other acoustic issues are pretty much insignificant compared to the the benefits.

I think the pure physics argument is that any time you have two drivers producing identical frequencies separated by some distance you will experience comb filtering and may create or exacerbate reflected energy issues with room surfaces (e.g. floors, walls) depending on the total height of the speaker stack and layout of the speakers in that vertical space. However, for most 2 bass cab stacks, my experience has been that benefits always outweigh these other concerns.

The comb filtering and other acoustic issues occur when two identical sound sources are not equidistant from your ears. You don't really notice the phasing aspect of comb filtering so much when the speakers are aligned vertically but you do notice the impact on the dispersion pattern in the form of uneven/changing frequency response as you vary distance from the sources. Standing on axis in front of my Greenboy Dually at a distance off about 15', the sound is relatively full range. At about 12' the top end starts rolling off and the roll off gets progressive worse the closer one moves towards the speaker.
Perhaps it would be possible to achieve a sound that is natural and even at all distances if I elevated the cab so my ears are midway (equidistant) between the drivers.

Take a look at the attached "bass array guide" to get an idea of how drivers interact. Make special note of how polar patterns are formed and the relationship of primary and secondary lobes. The graphs can be rescaled so they are relevant to different frequencies and spacing distances...the "frequency wave length chart 2013" is provided in case you want to attempt.

 

[chris_b]

Yeah like I clarified, the main part of the cabinet is braced very well. It's where the ports are located where the wood can be flexed. Also just to be fair I bet you didn't see him jumping up and down on that part of the cabinet

This reminds me of a thread where people were jumping on Thunderfunk because it ran hotter than some other amp. In the end Dave Funk posted words to the effect, Do you guys think I don't know how to design an amp?

My guess is that the guy who designed Barefaced cabs knew exactly what he was doing and designed them correctly. If there is any flexing it's in a place where flexing doesn't matter.


For the record: I've just tried to make my SC flex on the port side and it doesn't. YMMV

 

[Pbassmanca]

This reminds me of a thread where people were jumping on Thunderfunk because it ran hotter than some other amp. In the end Dave Funk posted words to the effect, Do you guys think I don't know how to design an amp?

My guess is that the guy who designed Barefaced cabs knew exactly what he was doing and designed them correctly. If there is any flexing it's in a place where flexing doesn't matter.


For the record: I've just tried to make my SC flex on the port side and it doesn't. YMMV

Is that guy's last name really Funk? Cause' that's awesome!

 

[chris_b]

Is that guy's last name really Funk? Cause' that's awesome!

I don't think so. I did see a post (on TB about 10 years ago) with his real name but I can't recall what or where.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Now I want to change my last name to Funk.

 

[mmbongo]

My guess is that the guy who designed Barefaced cabs knew exactly what he was doing and designed them correctly. If there is any flexing it's in a place where flexing doesn't matter.

It is this for sure. And the 'flexing' (probably not even fair to call it that) does not happen during operation. Only when manually pushed on by hand.

 

[Plutonium244]

My cabs do not flex.

 

[mmbongo]

My cabs do not flex.

What cabs do you have? If you push down on the very edge of the port opening in the middle the wood does not move at all? Mine are quite bendy.

 

[chandman1004]

Great review. I own the Sub 1x12 and 1x15, and have been curious about Barefaced.

My Subway stack can fit into the trunk of my Vauxhall Astra without showing a trace (don't even have to take the trunk cover away). So compact enough for me. They're a bit heavier than I would've wanted (yes, I'm nitpicking, because I can carry my entire rig in one trip from the car to the stage) but reading what you said about the BF's sides yielding when you push on it, I'll take something slightly bulkier (i.e. a truly earth-shattering 15kg) and built like a tank over that.

Sound-wise, I've discovered sticking a couple of beer crates under my rig helps eliminate boominess in more, uh, boomy, venues.

View attachment 2995011

Good gosh, that's awesome. This is my perfect solution to everything. This woul take the place of a heritage 410 HLF and svt 6- pro , a little mark head and a eden 112 all in one shot.

 

[agedhorse]

The comb filtering and other acoustic issues occur when two identical sound sources are not equidistant from your ears. You don't really notice the phasing aspect of comb filtering so much when the speakers are aligned vertically but you do notice the impact on the dispersion pattern in the form of uneven/changing frequency response as you vary distance from the sources. Standing on axis in front of my Greenboy Dually at a distance off about 15', the sound is relatively full range. At about 12' the top end starts rolling off and the roll off gets progressive worse the closer one moves towards the speaker.
Perhaps it would be possible to achieve a sound that is natural and even at all distances if I elevated the cab so my ears are midway (equidistant) between the drivers.

Take a look at the attached "bass array guide" to get an idea of how drivers interact. Make special note of how polar patterns are formed and the relationship of primary and secondary lobes. The graphs can be rescaled so they are relevant to different frequencies and spacing distances...the "frequency wave length chart 2013" is provided in case you want to attempt.

Of course that paper has almost nothing to do with bass guitar cabinets in general because in practice room boundaries create more significant effects than 2 closely separated sources.

 

[alexclaber]

Yeah like I clarified, the main part of the cabinet is braced very well. It's where the ports are located where the wood can be flexed. Also just to be fair I bet you didn't see him jumping up and down on that part of the cabinet

I'll do that and video it when I get a chance!

 

[Wasnex]

Of course that paper has almost nothing to do with bass guitar cabinets in general because in practice room boundaries create more significant effects than 2 closely separated sources.

Okay, let me make a total fool of myself so you can explain what is really going on. I am really just trying to explain what I am hearing with my cabinet(s) which is a rather significant drop off of high end when I approach the cabinet when it is setup vertically on the floor. Place the cabinet on it's side and the vertical dispersion is much better but the horizontal dispersion becomes limited. Cabinet sounds great when I stand 15 feet in front of it...totally unusable (for me) if I have to stand within about eight feet. Here's what I think is approximately going on:

Take a look at figure 42. Note the spacing is a bit more than one wavelength at 100hz (13.1 vs 11.25 feet). My assumption is the same approximate polar pattern will emerge anytime the center to center spacing between drivers has the same distance/frequency ratio, assuming no splay angle between the drivers as with stacking bass cabinets...or with a standard 215 with both drivers on the same baffle board.

The driver frames on my cabinet are about an inch apart and the centers of the voice coils are about 16 inches. So with my assumptions, and if my monkey math guestimations are approximately right, I would expect as similar dispersion pattern to emerge a bit north of 900 hz. According to the chart, wavelength at 880hz is 15.34" (shorter than the spacing).

I am pretty sure the narrowing vertical polar pattern I am hearing with the cab is not in my imagination. I get similar results with some EVM18Bs that I own. Individual (single driver) cabinets sound great run full range for bass. They have a surprising amount of high end and also a surprisingly wide dispersion pattern when used in singles. Start pairing them up and they don't sound nearly as good...although they do get louder and produce more bass. The vertical dispersion of the (much loved) 810 is (IMHO) also horrid and the 810's horizontal beaming is also well discussed...I think the beaming can be both good and bad depending upon how the cabinet is used and the player's needs...it's not for me.

Obviously the interaction of the drivers is not a problem for many players...but for many players it is not desired. Otherwise we probably wouldn't have so many designs that focus so much on full range response and wide dispersion patterns.

I have been wondering why no one has designed a pair of 115s that are designed to properly array...one with a vertical front baffle, one tilted back with the proper spacing, angle and acoustic treatment...flat top of course to hold your big tube head. I believe Quilter may have considered dispersion with their Bassliner series.

So, if you have the time, please share whatever thoughts you care to share on the subject.