Mesa Subway 112 vs. Barefaced Super Midget

[Tim1]

I'll do that and video it when I get a chance!

It was a while ago, @alexclaber. Maybe you were just standing on it???? Either way, I was pretty impressed.
It bothers me sometimes on this forum when one person's casual observation can be repeated enough times that it becomes pseudo-fact, certainly when it was not intended that way. An internet type of Chinese whispers to which I suppose all manufacturers are vulnerable.
My Barefaced cabs are light and as solid as any other cab I have owned.

 

[agedhorse]

The simplest explanation is that when you are close, you are very much more off axis.

The next simplest explanation is that you have other boundary reflections combining.

There might be some effect from the emerging dipole pattern, but generally it's at a higher frequency and will change as you move around because the sum/difference pattern decreases in size with increasing frequency.

That white paper is focused on what happens when you extend the array elements and change the phase (either electronically or via physical positioning of the cabinets).

 

[Wasnex]

The simplest explanation is that when you are close, you are very much more off axis.

The next simplest explanation is that you have other boundary reflections combining.

There might be some effect from the emerging dipole pattern, but generally it's at a higher frequency and will change as you move around because the sum/difference pattern decreases in size with increasing frequency.

That white paper is focused on what happens when you extend the array elements and change the phase (either electronically or via physical positioning of the cabinets).

Thanks. For decades my standard practice has been to elevate and tilt speakers back so they are aimed at my head. My assumption is this allows me to hear more direct sound and more of the full range produced by the speaker.

For whatever reason, in my experience, doubling speakers does not automatically equate to improved sound. It does typically result in more volume and more bass....but often I prefer the sound of a single cab over two. IMHO the sound of a single cab is often more detailed, articulate, and focused than two identical cabs. My assumption is destructive interference between the drivers is the cause of the degraded sound....but you seem to be calling this BS, so .

Have a nice day!

 

[Al Kraft]

Thanks. For decades my standard practice has been to elevate and tilt speakers back so they are aimed at my head. My assumption is this allows me to hear more direct sound and more of the full range produced by the speaker.

For whatever reason, in my experience, doubling speakers does not automatically equate to improved sound. It does typically result in more volume and more bass....but often I prefer the sound of a single cab over two. IMHO the sound of a single cab is often more detailed, articulate, and focused than two identical cabs. My assumption is destructive interference between the drivers is the cause of the degraded sound....but you seem to be calling this BS, so .

Have a nice day!

My feeling is that your experiences are 100% valid because they actually happened to you. However, the tricky part about understanding why you experienced what you did is sorting through all the possible contributing factors, their potential combined effects, and the relative contributions of the factors.

From a purists point of view everything matters. From a practical point of view while you can always suffer death from a thousand paper cuts, it's usually a couple of big things that really affect the outcome (think about the Pareto principle).

So in general, one might reasonably assume you'd have better clarity with a situation where all the drivers (in one or multiple cabs) are crossed-over and matched so as not to reproduce the same frequencies. In reality though, depending on a ton of factors, not the least of which is the designer's goals and skill, you could have cabs engineered to work brilliantly together, despite them all being full range.

I also think many bass cabs are designed/optimized to sound good out front to the audience and may compromise a bit in terms of functioning perfectly as a monitor for the bass player (and band). Duke at AudioKinesis has tried some very innovative things in cab design to improve on that compromise and IMO it's more effective than I expected.

 

[Wasnex]

My feeling is that your experiences are 100% valid because they actually happened to you. However, the tricky part about understanding why you experienced what you did is sorting through all the possible contributing factors, their potential combined effects, and the relative contributions of the factors.

From a purists point of view everything matters. From a practical point of view while you can always suffer death from a thousand paper cuts, it's usually a couple of big things that really affect the outcome (think about the Pareto principle).

So in general, one might reasonably assume you'd have better clarity with a situation where all the drivers (in one or multiple cabs) are crossed-over and matched so as not to reproduce the same frequencies. In reality though, depending on a ton of factors, not the least of which is the designer's goals and skill, you could have cabs engineered to work brilliantly together, despite them all being full range.

I also think many bass cabs are designed/optimized to sound good out front to the audience and may compromise a bit in terms of functioning perfectly as a monitor for the bass player (and band). Duke at AudioKinesis has tried some very innovative things in cab design to improve on that compromise and IMO it's more effective than I expected.

Thanks...I wrote a response but deleted it as off topic. See you somewhere else.

 

[bobcruz]

Thanks. For decades my standard practice has been to elevate and tilt speakers back so they are aimed at my head. My assumption is this allows me to hear more direct sound and more of the full range produced by the speaker.

For whatever reason, in my experience, doubling speakers does not automatically equate to improved sound. It does typically result in more volume and more bass....but often I prefer the sound of a single cab over two. IMHO the sound of a single cab is often more detailed, articulate, and focused than two identical cabs. My assumption is destructive interference between the drivers is the cause of the degraded sound....but you seem to be calling this BS, so .

Have a nice day!

Did you ever try a vertical stack with two cabs pointing in different direstions--90 degrees offset to each other with the corner pointed straight out at the audience? I think this positioning has some advantages IME. I point the bottom cab at the drummer and the top cab at my head and we're both happy.

 

[Wasnex]

Did you ever try a vertical stack with two cabs pointing in different direstions--90 degrees offset to each other with the corner pointed straight out at the audience? I think this positioning has some advantages IME. I point the bottom cab at the drummer and the top cab at my head and we're both happy.

I have done this and yes it made the drummer very happy.

 

[Al Kraft]

Thanks...I wrote a response but deleted it as off topic. See you somewhere else.

While we were a bit off topic with this, I thought it was a valid and interesting discussion. You might want to start a thread on this to get some of the engineers and designers to help educate us a bit more. Between the pure physics, acoustics, and real world influences there is a lot we could all learn here IMO.

 

[jeff7bass]

I was more interested in a comparison between the Super Compact and the Mesa. It appears to be more capable of producing bottom end than the Super Midget, which is important especially when using as a standalone cab. Since more bottom is coming from the cab itself, I would think dialing down the bass on the amp would allow it to go louder before entering the Fart Zone. Just my theory of course.

 

[jeff7bass]

I have done this and yes it made the drummer very happy.

I've done it too! I was pretty much our band's soundman and I found that positioning speakers (both amps and PA monitors/mains) can really help the band hear everything without blasting out our ears with volume. It also helps the audience hear everything without getting hammered.