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Mesa Subway Bass DI-Preamp

#402
bucephylus said:
I’m pretty pleased with the Grizzly going into the Subway Pre/DI for my distortion /drive sounds.

IIRC, Andy @agedhorse specifically said that he designed the input to be friendly to the variety of distortion pedals out there. The result seems to be true to the intent.
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Correct. Since the preamp was not designed as a distortion pedal, the least I could do is make it super pedal friendly.
 
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#404
franvarin said:
@agedhorse There is no need for it to be a distortion pedal. Definitely the right call Andy! There's almost just too many distortion boxes out there. The last thing really is to add another one!
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Ok, so what would you like in a distortion box... ?
 
#405
agedhorse said:
Ok, so what would you like in a distortion box... ?
Click to expand...

OK, you asked...LOL! :)
So, to me distortion and overdrive are different animals. What I try to achieve is to start with a fat tube like tone. the idea is to have a full sound with the fundamentals present. Next, I look to push the overdrive just to the point where a tube amp (preamp) starts to break up. I'm looking for a smooth overdrive that decays as the notes do with the trademark tube compression and sustain. I had a Bass 400+ when they first came out, that is my standard along with the "Ampeg tone". the Mesa tone to me sits better in the mix, more forward and is much darker sounding; tons of defined low end (not a garbled mess). That's why all those years ago, I selected the 400+ over an SVT. The Ampeg is rounder sounding and sits back and under the mix a bit, highs are better defined to me. In my opinion, Mesa and Ampeg have always had it right, everthing else seems to be catch up and an attempt on an variation to a theme.

Most of the time with the overdrive options on the market, they are too harsh and sterile. Hard to describe but, basically do not sound warm. The best box I can think of along that line is probably the EBS Valve Drive DI right now. The tone is good and options seem to be there but, it's huge, pricey, and tries to offer too many options. If only they had just created a tube overdrive as opposed to trying to make it a full blown preamp with a DI, aka swiss army knife. I have the Darkglass VMT which is ok but, I find it loses the bottom end so, not really living up to the hype, same with the B7k. I tried an Aftershock and fundamentally same issues and really long learning curve given all the parameters you can tweak since it's actually a digital pedal.

In terms of distortion, so lets start with one of the videos above, the Invalid Link Removed. What I love about his is where the bass sits in the mix. What i noticed off the bat is the bass still kept the clean low end tone and the Flux Five provided touch sensitive musical distortion. BOOM! now that's a distortion sound for Bass that's usable and is differnt than the overdrive needs above. The fundamentals of each note can still be heard along with great definition. Another example of this and clearly a bit more extreme is the Invalid Link Removed. They have modeled Billy Sheehan's Pearce pre and really nailed it. The problem is the helix is in the startosphere price wise for most players. I think the street is somewhere around $1500. I don't see the average working Bassist like me grabbing those up any time soon. The point is that both of these approaches, the Flux five/Subway and the Line 6 Helix capture what I'm getting at. Tight bass fundamentals that don't get lost when you kick the unit on. the other player who played along this line was Doug Pinnick with Kings X (Here's "Invalid Link Removed" and "Invalid Link Removed"). Listen to the album "Faith, Hope, Love" and there it is. His Bass sits up front in the mix and is extremely musical; not a sonic mess of distortion. At the end of the day I'm a Bassist, I want the Bass to sound like a Bass, not a guitar.

Like I said there are a lot of pedals out there and a fair number of them get to a sonic mess in a hurry to my ears.
 
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#406
My church has moved for amps on the stage to guitar amps in the back room and using the Behringer P16's with in ears. The last thing to go on stage was the Fender 15" bass combo amp. It sounded OK, a little vanilla.

We just ordered the Mesa Boogie Subway and I can't wait to use it. After we ordered it I realized we need a power supply. So I guess I will order a One spot today. I am a Aguilar guy (Tone hammer 500) and love their warm sound. My son has the Aguilar pre amp pedal and its great. I just wanted to get a clearer tone and I love Boogie so I will report back after we use it in my studio and live.
 
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#407
Ok we received the Subway today.
1,. I went to the church and the first thing I noticed was how light the Subway is.
2. The second thing I noticed was the master volume did nothing if you go from the XLR ouput from the back into our mixer.
3. The third thing was there is hiss coming out of the our speakers. If I decrease the input it reduces the hiss and then I can increase the gain on the mixer.

Called Sweetwater and they are sending a new one. They said with a DI you don't need a buffer between the DI box and mic pre in the back of the stage.

I then took it to my studio and compared it to the Augilar Tone Hammer, and Rupert Neve DI.

In my studio there was no hiss but the master volume still did nothing. The other controls did work so I know the pre/post setting was correct. I recorded a bass track with it and then recorded the same track with my Rupert Neve DI box.
The Boogie goes to 53hz freq's before dipping and the Rupert Neve dips around 60hz.
They both provide very clean detailed sound. The Neve however provides a smooth even sound while the Boogie boost certain freq's a little making it a little pointy in comparison. The Aguilar has a warmer character than both. The Neve and Boogie have a similar clean sound in comparison to the Aguilar.
 
#408
Please read the manual. On the DI out, the master volume does NOT affect the signal in the post position. This is how it's supposed to work, there is nothing wrong with your unit.

The master volume is used in conjunction with the line level XLR output for level control when driving power amps.

The hiss that you experienced was almost certainly due to a gain structure problem, or noise present before the DI being amplified by the system. Some active basses have a higher noise floor, and this is also very common when pedals are used in front of a DI.

When you used it in the studio and it was quiet, was it with exactly the same bass and pedals? I think you will find that it is being caused by something before your DI.
 
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#409
agedhorse said:
Please read the manual. On the DI out, the master volume does NOT affect the signal in the post position. This is how it's supposed to work, there is nothing wrong with your unit.

The master volume is used in conjunction with the line level XLR output for level control when driving power amps.

The hiss that you experienced was almost certainly due to a gain structure problem, or noise present before the DI being amplified by the system. Some active basses have a higher noise floor, and this is also very common when pedals are used in front of a DI.

When you used it in the studio and it was quiet, was it with exactly the same bass and pedals? I think you will find that it is being caused by something before your DI.
Click to expand...

Ok, thanks for the info on the master volume. The bass I am using is a Fender Jazz American Standard which is passive. I am also using no pedals.
 
#412
The question is why it had hiss (I am assuming that you are describing hiss and not hum) with the live application but not in the studio. That makes me wonder what was different (equipment and operation) between the two. Is it possible that it was a case of operator error or poor gain structure in the live use? The noise floor is quite low with these PRE-DI's, but if for example you were using the preamp out rather than the DI out, that alone is a noise floor difference of over 20dB just because of the gain difference (for the same console input gain).

Rather than just assuming there's a problem with the gear, let's look at some troubleshooting steps to see where the problem might be and WHY you are having the difficulties. There are thousands of these out there without any issues, something is responsible for what you are hearing and the cause may not be obvious.
 
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#413
FWIW, I have been sending the XLR Preamp out to the board. I have the input trim at the board set so that I am about 6 dB below clipping on the board at my max volume setting on the Subway. That gives me some discretion with my volume send to the board.

I realize that my FOH volume is ultimately set by our sound person; and I don’t use the Subway volume knob much, if at all on the gig. Still it’s nice to have my own knob, if I need it.
 
#414
bucephylus said:
FWIW, I have been sending the XLR Preamp out to the board. I have the input trim at the board set so that I am about 6 dB below clipping on the board at my max volume setting on the Subway. That gives me some discretion with my volume send to the board.

I realize that my FOH volume is ultimately set by our sound person; and I don’t use the Subway volume knob much, if at all on the gig. Still it’s nice to have my own knob, if I need it.
Click to expand...

This is fine IF your console's mic pre can handle +4dBu nominal (over +10dBu max) and the gain structure is correctly set for this kind of signal. Many consoles are not. Most common problem is that the gain on the console is set for mic level while the device is configured for line level. This will cause an increase in the noise floor, and likely console input stage distortion at gig volume.
 
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#415
agedhorse said:
This is fine IF your console's mic pre can handle +4dBu nominal (over +10dBu max) and the gain structure is correctly set for this kind of signal. Many consoles are not. Most common problem is that the gain on the console is set for mic level while the device is configured for line level. This will cause an increase in the noise floor, and likely console input stage distortion at gig volume.
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Thanks Andy. Yes, we’ve been working with this board for the better part of a year now, and have most of the issues sorted out.
 
#416
bucephylus said:
Thanks Andy. Yes, we’ve been working with this board for the better part of a year now, and have most of the issues sorted out.
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The OP appears to have been using his in a church setting... it's common to see all kinds of unexplained situations in church PAs, in fact this is where some of the troubleshooting steps originate (from what we have seen that we simply couldn't believe).
 
#417
agedhorse said:
The OP appears to have been using his in a church setting... it's common to see all kinds of unexplained situations in church PAs, in fact this is where some of the troubleshooting steps originate (from what we have seen that we simply couldn't believe).
Click to expand...
No doubt. You know, part of the thing is that companies like Behringer are making some pretty sophisticated boards available at lower price points. The problem is that sophistication introduces a lot of complexity.
 
#418
bucephylus said:
No doubt. You know, part of the thing is that companies like Behringer are making some pretty sophisticated boards available at lower price points. The problem is that sophistication introduces a lot of complexity.
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It introduces troubleshooting steps that would never have been considered. Routings that boggle the mind with "why would anybody ever want to do that"??? The guys on the help desks at these companies have it rough.
 
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#419
agedhorse said:
It introduces troubleshooting steps that would never have been considered. Routings that boggle the mind with "why would anybody ever want to do that"??? The guys on the help desks at these companies have it rough.
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Tell me about it. When our vocalist bought our board used from a prominent Des Moines SE, he also purchased a “scene.” The problem with the purchased “scene” was exactly what you just posted. But, since we had paid for it, it became kind of the Holy Grail that no one understood or was allowed to touch. Push came to shove, and we finally took the board back to factory preset and went from there. And everything has been awesome since. As they say, an expert is a guy from out of town with a briefcase. LOL
 
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