Mesa Subway D-350!

[Smokey P]

To be honest, and no disrespect meant here, I just don't understand this logic. And you're not the first one I've seen post something like this. But given the size and weight of the current selection of 700/800 watt Class D amps, and the fact that they generally offer a deeper feature set then their 350 watt counterparts, AND they obviously come with a volume control, why would you "downsize", especially given you already own their 700 watt, more feature rich counterpart. I can totally understand if you're just starting out and own neither, but given you already own the D800+, I respectfully don't understand. Just asking as I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here. Also, no disrespect meant to Andy or the Mesa products either.

Personally for the gigs I do in a crowded city 800 watts is way overkill. And like you pointed out, well I can just use an 800 watt amp and turn down the volume, the appeal would really just kick in for the price savings. If this mesa 350 is real and the price really is $650 (allegedly ) then that’s really appealing to me as a guy in his mid 20s with very little extra cash for gear. A used mesa 800 goes quickly for $650, but in a year or two a mesa 350 could go used for closer to maybe $450 is a lot more realistic for me. That’s just my specific circumstances though, if I can save money instead of paying for watts I don’t need that is pretty appealing! If it had an HPF i would digging out my couch cushions for quarters right away.

 

[drpepper]

I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here. Also, no disrespect meant to Andy or the Mesa products either.

I can throw a couple of things at you from a weekend player perspective, which I think makes up a large portion of the great middle of the bell curve (and I believe it's an important real-world distinction because these are people who are driven less by needs than by wants...less by necessary business expenses than by level of disposable income)...

1. There are people who want to/feel they should have more than one amp to have a "backup" on hand. Where they already have a 700 watt class amp that is routinely overkill, a less powerful and less expensive and less feature rich amp is attractive.

2. There are people want to have multiple amps because of the existence of shiny things in the world and having money (GAS), and as above, especially where they already have an amp or amps that is/are routinely overkill, a less powerful and less expensive and less feature rich amp is attractive.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

Personally for the gigs I do in a crowded city 800 watts is way overkill. And like you pointed out, well I can just use an 800 watt amp and turn down the volume, the appeal would really just kick in for the price savings. If this mesa 350 is real and the price really is $650 (allegedly ) then that’s really appealing to me as a guy in his mid 20s with very little extra cash for gear. A used mesa 800 goes quickly for $650, but in a year or two a mesa 350 could go used for closer to maybe $450 is a lot more realistic for me. That’s just my specific circumstances though, if I can save money instead of paying for watts I don’t need that is pretty appealing! If it had an HPF i would digging out my couch cushions for quarters right away.

I appreciate your reply, but I guess my question is more if you already own the 800 watt version vs. having neither and just buying what you need and saving the extra cost. We all know that if you were to sell the 800 watt version used to buy the 350watt version, you really won't gain much, if at all, and could possibly end up with a lower power, less feature rich amp as an even swap to your higher power, more expensive one. Hopefully that better explains my confusion and curiosity here. Of course if you own the 700 watt version and are looking for a cost effective amp to use on smaller gigs and second as a back up, then it makes total sense to me.

 

[Jim Bergantino]

I can throw a couple of things at you from a weekend player perspective, which I think makes up a large portion of the great middle of the bell curve...

1. There are people who want to/feel they should have more than one amp to have a "backup" on hand. Where they already have a 700 watt class amp that is routinely overkill, a less powerful and less expensive and less feature rich amp is attractive.

2. There are people want to have multiple amps because of the existence of shiny things in the world and having money (GAS), and as above, especially where they already have an amp or amps that is/are routinely overkill, a less powerful and less expensive and less feature rich amp is attractive.

You must have been writing this while I was responding to Smokey P's reply. Thank you for your response. Makes sense about the backup which I believe every serious gigging musician should have at all times. And as for your second point, who am I to refuse to alleviate one's gas and not take their hard earned money from them...it would seen almost unconscionable! ;-}

 

[Inara]

Ordered one. I have been wanting this since the first prototype. A 3-pound Mesa amp with 175/350 watts paired with one or two of my 20-pound Schroeder Mini 12+L cabs is perfect for me, as all of my shows have good FOH. And it's fanless for silent recording. I still have my wonderful Bergantino AE410 and 500 watt Orange Little Bass Thing for the occasional show where I may need more.

So yeah, I'm very excited. It gets here Tuesday, and I have shows Wednesday and Sunday night where I'll probably use it.

 

[gl1234]

I'm one of those folks who is "downsizing" from an 800w amp to its 350w smaller version (i'll keep this anonymous since company is not the point). A number of reasons, including not needing the big power for the quieter, acoustic guitar-backing types of music i play, not needing the extra features of the bigger amp, and even, full disclosure here, being an old fart so every single schlep pound i can reduce in my rig and instruments is meaningful and practical. And i admit to a silly "emotional" factor - somehow having a bunch of knobs and buttons i never use annoys me. I think it is great that companies choose to have a product line that serves both "little" players as well as "big".

I appreciate your reply, but I guess my question is more if you already own the 800 watt version vs. having neither and just buying what you need and saving the extra cost. We all know that if you were to sell the 800 watt version used to by the 350watt version, you really won't gain much, if at all, and could possibly end up with a lower power, less feature rich amp as an even swap to your higher power, more expensive one. Hopefully that better explains my confusion and curiosity here. Of course if you own the 700 watt version and are looking for a cost effective amp to use on smaller gigs and second as a back up, then it makes total sense to me.

 

[lomo]

Just asking as I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here.

IMHO it's a niche thing. Some will prefer a lower price point and neither need nor want the added features, or want "in" on a Mesa "rig" but lack the scratch for the modular offerings, and others groove heavily on having exactly enough machine for the occasion, and not having to transport/ connect multiple pieces (no matter how simple that may be). Sometimes less is more; sometimes more is too much (Tim the Tool Man notwithstanding)

 

[Rich Fiscus]

The real problem with battery powered rigs IMO is that it’s asking a lot for an amp manufacturer to come up with the power solution. You really need an entire range of solutions, which means you’re now effectively in the mobile power business.

I prefer to go to an amp specialist for my amp and a battery specialist for my power solutions.

I should probably add to this that the amp makers have done their part by making extremely efficient amps. That’s what makes battery power a realistic option.

 

[TomB]

If a 3lb LI battery can mow my entire 1/4 acre of grass, I’m sure it could easily push out 30 watts of bass tone for a very long time. I’m not sure if the demand is there to justify the design work, but the battery technology is getting amazing.

 

[hennessybass]

To be honest, and no disrespect meant here, I just don't understand this logic. And you're not the first one I've seen post something like this. But given the size and weight of the current selection of 700/800 watt Class D amps, and the fact that they generally offer a deeper feature set then their 350 watt counterparts, AND they obviously come with a volume control, why would you "downsize", especially given you already own their 700 watt, more feature rich counterpart. I can totally understand if you're just starting out and own neither, but given you already own the D800+, I respectfully don't understand. Just asking as I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here. Also, no disrespect meant to Andy or the Mesa products either.

I think it might be a psychological thing for some - why have (or pay for) all those watts that I'm not going to use?

When I was rolling around in a van, I had a 350w tiny amp (Aguilar) in my road case - back up in case my tube amp went sideways. It fit in my road case and was not much bigger than a DI box, so I just took it everywhere. Peace of mind.

As soon as I used it on a gig and discovered I liked the amp, I instantly upgraded to the 500w version. Now I have the 700w version (which didn't exist at the time). It still fits in the same road case with all the same stuff - adds 2 pounds, but can literally handle any gig without worry. Even more peace of mind.
Also works great with my 112 (Berg) for a home / small rig with the volume turned down.

In retrospect, all those years ago, I would have just carried around the larger version of the amp as backup.

I kind of get the tiny / low power amp it if you are a strictly home player, or a player who just jams with some acoustic guitars. Maybe if you don't gig (or need that kind of amp), but want a particular brand of amp - then I guess it makes sense.

 

[marchone]

I kind of get the tiny / low power amp it if you are a strictly home player, or a player who just jams with some acoustic guitars. Maybe if you don't gig (or need that kind of amp), but want a particular brand of amp - then I guess it makes sense.

A good sound system in a home/studio environment can crank up to small club volumes.

If the difference in size isn't a critical issue, the 800w models all have volume controls.

 

[Hot Rats]

This is the kind of thing I could see myself making a cradle to fit it into my Walkabout Scout cabinet. I love my D800 and this would work perfectly and lighten the load.

 

[SJan3]

To be honest, and no disrespect meant here, I just don't understand this logic. And you're not the first one I've seen post something like this. But given the size and weight of the current selection of 700/800 watt Class D amps, and the fact that they generally offer a deeper feature set then their 350 watt counterparts, AND they obviously come with a volume control, why would you "downsize", especially given you already own their 700 watt, more feature rich counterpart. I can totally understand if you're just starting out and own neither, but given you already own the D800+, I respectfully don't understand. Just asking as I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here. Also, no disrespect meant to Andy or the Mesa products either.

Some feel that a high powered amp full of features doing not much more than "idling" thru a low volume gig is not getting into the "meat" or "sweet spot" of the amp. I've experienced a bit of this with my Quilter Bass Block 800. It's a lot of booty for an intimate gig and I sometimes feel that I'm below where this amp is meant to play. And now I have a 300watt head for those applications. I also have a 500watt unit. All of my amps offer something different/unique in addition to their power ratings. It's not just about the power. You know better than I that preamps vary tonally. And I may simply be intrigued with a new amp sort of like getting a new car that I didn't need, but wanted.
Years ago I used a GK 800RB and @ 300 watts, I don't recall that amp ever choking for my needs.
* Who needs 800 horsepower when you can only drive 55? And maybe I don't want a busy feature set amp. I prefer simple as I tend to dial in one tone and stay there for the night.
*This is simply my perspective. I have no science to back it up.

 

[SJan3]

I appreciate your reply, but I guess my question is more if you already own the 800 watt version vs. having neither and just buying what you need and saving the extra cost. We all know that if you were to sell the 800 watt version used to buy the 350watt version, you really won't gain much, if at all, and could possibly end up with a lower power, less feature rich amp as an even swap to your higher power, more expensive one. Hopefully that better explains my confusion and curiosity here. Of course if you own the 700 watt version and are looking for a cost effective amp to use on smaller gigs and second as a back up, then it makes total sense to me.

..and that it. I wouldn't replace my 800 watt unit for the 300 unit. The 300 watter may fall short in high demand situations. It's nice to have a backup and also a unit you feel is better suited for a certain application.

 

[SJan3]

You must have been writing this while I was responding to Smokey P's reply. Thank you for your response. Makes sense about the backup which I believe every serious gigging musician should have at all times. And as for your second point, who am I to refuse to alleviate one's gas and not take their hard earned money from them...it would seen almost unconscionable! ;-}

We don't want you on the bread line, Jim.
Take the money!!

 

[19sixty3]

To be honest, and no disrespect meant here, I just don't understand this logic. And you're not the first one I've seen post something like this. But given the size and weight of the current selection of 700/800 watt Class D amps, and the fact that they generally offer a deeper feature set then their 350 watt counterparts, AND they obviously come with a volume control, why would you "downsize", especially given you already own their 700 watts, more feature rich counterpart. I can totally understand if you're just starting out and own neither, but given you already own the D800+, I respectfully don't understand. Just asking as I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here. Also, no disrespect meant to Andy or the Mesa products either.

Thank you for sharing your view, sir. I can hear you. And you have a point. Well, my motivation for an additional 350 watt amp is simple! Why play a gig in a small club with big - and expensive gar without any need when you can do it 2 sizes smaller? One could also ask: Why do players have backup amps? I prefer to play a good (smaller) amp when I definitely don't need my big rig!

 

[agedhorse]

To be honest, and no disrespect meant here, I just don't understand this logic. And you're not the first one I've seen post something like this. But given the size and weight of the current selection of 700/800 watt Class D amps, and the fact that they generally offer a deeper feature set then their 350 watt counterparts, AND they obviously come with a volume control, why would you "downsize", especially given you already own their 700 watt, more feature rich counterpart. I can totally understand if you're just starting out and own neither, but given you already own the D800+, I respectfully don't understand. Just asking as I'm very intrigued by this thinking, and I'm wondering as a designer and manufacturer myself if I'm missing something here. Also, no disrespect meant to Andy or the Mesa products either.

Jim brings up a great point. The why behind a (potential) product like this and say the D-800+ and a lower powered amp with fewer features comes down to the target player an amp like this might appeal to. Of course, comparing to the D-800 would be closer, but similar arguments apply.

For some players, a slimmed down feature set is actually a bigger feature and fewer features (provided it meets the player’s performance needs of course), especially if it makes the amp smaller/lighter, fanless and less expensive, could fit the player’s overall desires better.

One of the best recent examples of this is the difference between the B|Amp and the Forte. If we were to dig deeper, the player who naturally gravitated towards the feature of the B|Amp might also coincide with the player looking for higher powered models.

Another good example (at least IMO) is the Fender Tonemaster series. With the amount of DSP in that product, it would have been easy for mission creep to take over with a stupid over-rich feature set. Instead, they targeted the features to appeal the target player for that type of product. Gut feeling, but I suspect that it was a good choice.

Just some thoughts in between projects…

 

[mikeswals]

Ordered one. I have been wanting this since the first prototype. A 3-pound Mesa amp with 175/350 watts paired with one or two of my 20-pound Schroeder Mini 12+L cabs is perfect for me, as all of my shows have good FOH. And it's fanless for silent recording. I still have my wonderful Bergantino AE410 and 500 watt Orange Little Bass Thing for the occasional show where I may need more.

So yeah, I'm very excited. It gets here Tuesday, and I have shows Wednesday and Sunday night where I'll probably use it.

I just ordered one too! Gets here friday, and I'm playing friday & saturday so should be a great test run.

 

[agedhorse]

@agedhorse I'm curious about energy efficiency. Generally speaking, would a 350W class D amp will draw meaningfully less power than an 800W class D amp when played at low volume levels (eg, living room or cafe), all else (preamp section and speakers) being equal? (I'm taking it for granted that at high levels the 800W will draw more power because it can and needs to.)

This isn't specifically about unannounced products, the question came to mind mostly because a D800 and a hypothetical D350 would be the closest to an apples-to-apples comparison that two products could get. Though if answering this would get you in trouble, don't get in trouble.

Generally, there is a difference ~proportional difference, in part due to the power difference itself (fairly minor in class D) and in part due to the overhead/housekeeping losses in a larger amp/power supply operating at low power.

There are also possible lower losses in the smaller models if they can use a more efficient implementation of a class D circuit type.

 

[Smokey P]

I appreciate your reply, but I guess my question is more if you already own the 800 watt version vs. having neither and just buying what you need and saving the extra cost. We all know that if you were to sell the 800 watt version used to buy the 350watt version, you really won't gain much, if at all, and could possibly end up with a lower power, less feature rich amp as an even swap to your higher power, more expensive one. Hopefully that better explains my confusion and curiosity here. Of course if you own the 700 watt version and are looking for a cost effective amp to use on smaller gigs and second as a back up, then it makes total sense to me.

Ah I see what your saying, that makes a lot of sense. My situation is definitely pretty specific to someone who plays in Philly or NYC for the most part. If I need more sound than 350 watts through my (wildly efficient/very loud) revsound 112 can provided than the gig is going to be backlined almost 100% of the time. at least until I get thrown on a major tour like some of my colleges have lately…thanks Jim!