Mesa Subway D-350!

[DJ Bebop]

I can think of another pic or two that would work well lol but then I would (rightfully) be in TB jail for violating our no politics rule.

Yes, I know from personal experience
That's why I went where I went until the flat earth police come for me

 

[Fat Nermil]

Have to say it's kind of a unique collector's piece

Totally agree. I just got a chuckle out of running across it not 15 minutes after reading this thread. It felt like I spotted a unicorn in the forest .

 

[agedhorse]

You pretty much did.

 

[ardgedee]

So they’re charging US-made prices but manufacturing overseas? Not kool! That just confirms my cynicism when it comes to most businesses. Eliminate local jobs but charge the same as if they were still doing the work. Great for profits, sucks for everyone else. If I am wrong about this feel free to correct me. I’m not trying to pick on any one company and I do quite like Genzler’s product line so I’m kind of saying this with some reluctance.

For smaller companies, outsourcing is not that cheap. It requires not only contracting with factories but hiring consultants and project managers (preferably unaffiliated with the manufacturers, packagers and shippers) to supervise to enforce your product standards, and those costs have to be amortized over a relatively small volume of merchandise. Boutique electronics can't be priced like commodities, regardless of where they're made. There are a lot of external costs as well. Genzler isn't manufacturing in Taiwan because it's cheapest -- last I heard (admittedly a bunch of years ago) it costs on average around twice as much as one of the industrial centers in mainland China -- but probably because as a startup they determined it was the best option for getting product out the door without having to fund the launch of an entire factory from scratch or outsource to vendors they weren't sufficiently confident in.

By contrast, Mesa set up its factory decades ago, and they don't have to hire outside consultants to ensure that the factory doesn't work against Mesa's own interests.

I occasionally dip into Bunnie Huang's blog for insights into electronics manufacture and outsourcing. It's very accessible to people outside the trade and occasionally fascinating, such as this piece on why subtle design decisions can cause drastic price changes or this one on why so many products aren't made by robots. He also has an extensive series on his own experiences, step by step, in the process of getting a product of his own from design files through manufacture to shipping. It's pretty brutal but he documents it with an easygoing sense of humor. This isn't a field I'm in, I just find it interesting to read about, and as I have friends who are experimenting with parlaying their electronics skills into side jobs designing and selling products in small volumes, I get to see some of the stresses they go through.

 

[pigpen1]

This simply is not true, though people on the internet can say anything they want, truth or not.

I have negotiated prices on mesa gear twice over the past few years. I would have bought anyway at list price but it never hurts to ask. One dealer told me they could not advertise a lower price on new gear but could certainly sell for whatever they want. Not sure if they are really prohibited from advertising the lower price or not.

 

[pigpen1]

For smaller companies, outsourcing is not that cheap. It requires not only contracting with factories but hiring consultants and project managers (preferably unaffiliated with the manufacturers, packagers and shippers) to supervise to enforce your product standards, and those costs have to be amortized over a relatively small volume of merchandise. Boutique electronics can't be priced like commodities, regardless of where they're made. There are a lot of external costs as well. Genzler isn't manufacturing in Taiwan because it's cheapest -- last I heard (admittedly a bunch of years ago) it costs on average around twice as much as one of the industrial centers in mainland China -- but probably because as a startup they determined it was the best option for getting product out the door without having to fund the launch of an entire factory from scratch or outsource to vendors they weren't sufficiently confident in.

By contrast, Mesa set up its factory decades ago, and they don't have to hire outside consultants to ensure that the factory doesn't work against Mesa's own interests.

I occasionally dip into Bunnie Huang's blog for insights into electronics manufacture and outsourcing. It's very accessible to people outside the trade and occasionally fascinating, such as this piece on why subtle design decisions can cause drastic price changes or this one on why so many products aren't made by robots. He also has an extensive series on his own experiences, step by step, in the process of getting a product of his own from design files through manufacture to shipping. It's pretty brutal but he documents it with an easygoing sense of humor. This isn't a field I'm in, I just find it interesting to read about, and as I have friends who are experimenting with parlaying their electronics skills into side jobs designing and selling products in small volumes, I get to see some of the stresses they go through.

Sure, but small companies like trickfish and bergantino build domestically. Trickfish is a relatively new company as well. Don't think berg has been building amps nearly as long as cabs. Point is it can be done.

I think gentler amps are pretty good, but as a matter of consumer preference their place of manufacture is an issue for me when their are alternatives easily available in the same quality/price range that suit my preference.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

@agedhorse I really hope that Mesa considers a product like this. It's a great time to bring out such a great product! There is a market there, I believe that.

 

[FatStringer52]

It's more or less a older one-off concept piece that got out into the wild...

So, do you guys have any thoughts or comments?

If a D-350 maintained the DI, Aux In and Headphone Out I would love to have one for studio work and travelin'.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

The weight is already light, we want all of he features of the 800, the biggest plus would be a possible reduction in cost. All else being the same, it would be the price difference between the two power modules and then add in andy engineering work and any overhead incurred with a different SKU. Not sure what power modules are used, but there is something like a $30 difference between similar ICE modules of 1000W and 500W. So while 350W is enough for most gigs, would we rather pay a few bucks more and get 800W? Probably. Without knowing the exact modules used, I'm guesstimating, but I doubt the price difference would be more than $100.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

I would pay $x amount more for a 500 watt ICE module but I'd also be happy with the 350. I trust Andy to make the best mix of components and price for a smaller Mesa amp head. I think it will draw in more entry level bass players and it's a chance to build early brand loyalty.

 

[Heavy Blue]

For smaller companies, outsourcing is not that cheap. It requires not only contracting with factories but hiring consultants and project managers (preferably unaffiliated with the manufacturers, packagers and shippers) to supervise to enforce your product standards, and those costs have to be amortized over a relatively small volume of merchandise. Boutique electronics can't be priced like commodities, regardless of where they're made. There are a lot of external costs as well. Genzler isn't manufacturing in Taiwan because it's cheapest -- last I heard (admittedly a bunch of years ago) it costs on average around twice as much as one of the industrial centers in mainland China -- but probably because as a startup they determined it was the best option for getting product out the door without having to fund the launch of an entire factory from scratch or outsource to vendors they weren't sufficiently confident in.

By contrast, Mesa set up its factory decades ago, and they don't have to hire outside consultants to ensure that the factory doesn't work against Mesa's own interests.

I occasionally dip into Bunnie Huang's blog for insights into electronics manufacture and outsourcing. It's very accessible to people outside the trade and occasionally fascinating, such as this piece on why subtle design decisions can cause drastic price changes or this one on why so many products aren't made by robots. He also has an extensive series on his own experiences, step by step, in the process of getting a product of his own from design files through manufacture to shipping. It's pretty brutal but he documents it with an easygoing sense of humor. This isn't a field I'm in, I just find it interesting to read about, and as I have friends who are experimenting with parlaying their electronics skills into side jobs designing and selling products in small volumes, I get to see some of the stresses they go through.

Thank you for your insights and the links.

It’s really good to get more information on the issue because I would like to know more of why outsourcing happens so much if not for what I understand to be much lower wages and benefits in other parts of the world and considering the costs of getting the finished product back here.

 

[pigpen1]

If a D-350 maintained the DI, Aux In and Headphone Out I would love to have one for studio work and travelin'.

Me too now that I've had more time to think of it.

 

[Craig22221]

If the tone hammer 350 and Magellan 350 both sell well, a Mesa 350 would easily sell well also. Maybe better. I’m waiting for a good $500 deal on very clean lightly used a D800. If I can buy a brand new D350 for $500-550, please ship me one immediately. Here’s my $$$.

 

[Downunderwonder]

The weight is already light, we want all of he features of the 800, the biggest plus would be a possible reduction in cost. All else being the same, it would be the price difference between the two power modules and then add in andy engineering work and any overhead incurred with a different SKU. Not sure what power modules are used, but there is something like a $30 difference between similar ICE modules of 1000W and 500W. So while 350W is enough for most gigs, would we rather pay a few bucks more and get 800W? Probably. Without knowing the exact modules used, I'm guesstimating, but I doubt the price difference would be more than $100.

sounds about right, and all of why there's no 350+ or 500+ in the first place.

Agedhorse seems adamant there's no shrinking to be had without losing features.

Which bit of the proverbial cake can be given to the dog without him biting your leg in protest?

 

[Rich48]

I would prefer the 350 to be available as a small lightweight combo costing around 1k, but I would buy a Mesa 350 head in the $600 range when it’s available. Heck I would even put a deposit down if it would help to get one sooner.

 

[Jim C]

Seems like maybe the 800 is the sweet spot with all the features and plenty of power.

Sounds like what everyone is saying is that it has to either be smaller and/or cheaper.
My guess is that a Mesa customer is most interested in tone and features and losing either for a smaller size is going to disappoint.
Could the price be lowered by $200 if the power output is lowered to 350 watts into 4 Ohms?
Sounds doubtful

 

[lomo]

As a D800+ and Walkabout owner, the main attraction would be significantly smaller size. A head that's an easy fit into a gig bag pocket would get my attention, if it had a DI/ aux in/ phones out. If it wasn't smaller than the D800 I'd have zero interest.

 

[agedhorse]

It would need to be significantly smaller than the D-800, no doubt. Possible a similar feature set but there's not the room to add features. Of course it would need to be less expensive along with lower power but this also opens up the possibility of eliminating the fan.

Your comments have been both enlightening and helpful

 

[FatStringer52]

Do you have any figures in your head (or on paper) as to what your definition of "significantly smaller" would equate to (LxWxH)?

 

[agedhorse]

Say 20-25% smaller overall.