Mesa Subway Plus preamp

[Doufuss]

We have auto-inserted and wave-soldered for over 20 years but there is still an enormous amount of hand work required to build a tube amp like we do. Combine this with expensive parts, domestic labor and extensive agency certifications and it's simply not possible to build them for a price cheap bastards are willing to pay

This.

Although Fender is building some repros of their old designs, all hand wired, that come in at a price point that is far cheaper than the originals, factoring in COL and inflation. Still a wheelbarrow full of cash though.

Oh I should clarify... they're built in Mexico so that's a pretty huge factor.

 

[Michael Eisenman]

Has anyone swapped out the knobs on the Subway+ DI? I’m not keen on the flat-sided ones that come with it.

 

[Blues Marvel]

They are leaving us because that type of design/assembly turned out to be less reliable AND more costly.This was not a recent move either. There is PLENTY of hand work still required.

If hand assembled with flying lead sockets is important to you, there are plenty of these products available on the used market but you are advised to be sure they are operating properly as they have become very costly to repair.

Sounds like marketing speak to me. They went that way as it's more profitable to have a machine do most of the work. Care to deny that? Its the new throw away model/mentality.

 

[Michael Eisenman]

23809669[/URL], member: 346628"]Sounds like marketing speak to me. They went that way as it's more profitable to have a machine do most of the work. Care to deny that? Its the new throw away model/mentality.

I thought you were finished. Can we keep this thread about the Subway Plus Preamp?

 

[agedhorse]

Sounds like marketing speak to me. They went that way as it's more profitable to have a machine do most of the work. Care to deny that? Its the new throw away model/mentality.

Nope, auto-insert and wave soldering for example is about 10x more reliable when done properly than hand soldering. Cost savings really isn't the driving force behind this.

Nothing we make is throw away. Everything is serviceable, and backed by a 5 year warranty. We service everything we build, going back almost 50 years (provided parts are still available).

Therefore I categorically deny your accusation.

Why do you continue tilting at windmills?

 

[Blues Marvel]

Nope, auto-insert and wave soldering for example is about 10x more reliable when done properly than hand soldering. Cost savings really isn't the driving force behind this.

Nothing we make is throw away. Everything is serviceable, and backed by a 5 year warranty. We service everything we build, going back almost 50 years (provided parts are still available).

Therefore I categorically deny your accusation.

Why do you continue tilting at windmills?

We have differing opinions.
Carry on.

 

[agedhorse]

We have differing opinions.
Carry on.

I have factual data from decades of manufacturing experience, but don't let that change your opinion.

Touring grade mixing consoles, processing and amplifiers are all auto-inserted and wave soldered. Even under extreme conditions their reliability is many times higher than a hand wired/soldered guitar/bass amp in spite of many more connections, parts and sophistication.

This is why the Subway line (including the model in this thread) is built using auto-insertion and wave soldering.

 

[Jazzdogg]

We have differing opinions.
Carry on.

I prefer opinions based on fact and presented respectfully.

 

[Blues Marvel]

I have factual data from decades of manufacturing experience, but don't let that change your opinion.

Touring grade mixing consoles, processing and amplifiers are all auto-inserted and wave soldered. Even under extreme conditions their reliability is many times higher than a hand wired/soldered guitar/bass amp in spite of many more connections, parts and sophistication.

This is why the Subway line (including the model in this thread) is built using auto-insertion and wave soldering.

But you haven't presented any if it.

 

[Novarocker]

 

[agedhorse]

But you haven't presented any if it.

Sure I have. All touring consoles are auto-inserted and wave soldered (and now pick & place and reflow soldered due to SMT). The hardware failure rates are very, very low overall and soldering problems) even with lead free solder) are less than 1ppm over the lifetime of the product.

With the bass amps I have designed (all auto-insert and wave soldered), soldering defect rates are right around that number too.

It's virtually impossible to achieve even 10ppm soldering rates with standard hand soldering.

 

[Blues Marvel]

I have been playing music for 50 years as well as being heavily involved in manufacturing. For me CNC propagated and wave soldered is not my favorite build not that I dont have gear built that way. I much prefer the old fashion ways of building. My favorite being hand wired amps. As long as you guys are up front about it I suppose that's a plus. Perhaps I'm just old and cranky but I'm regressing back to old school builds these days and moving away from technology where gear is concerned.

As far as respect goes that's a two way street not a one way.

 

[WoodyJ]

I like old muscle cars - I have one. But it is slower and doesn't handle or stop as well as some of the new 400+ HP SUV's. Things change - sometimes for the better, sometimes not. It is what we call progress.

I also like old steam locomotives! (both my grandfathers were railroad men)

 

[agedhorse]

I have been playing music for 50 years as well as being heavily involved in manufacturing. For me CNC propagated and wave soldered is not my favorite build not that I dont have gear built that way. I much prefer the old fashion ways of building. My favorite being hand wired amps. As long as you guys are up front about it I suppose that's a plus. Perhaps I'm just old and cranky but I'm regressing back to old school builds these days and moving away from technology where gear is concerned.

As far as respect goes that's a two way street not a one way.

I have ALWAYS been up front about this subject, and I have been involved in the manufacturing of pro audio and MI gear for over 40 years. There is no way I would ever want to go back to pre-CNC days with all the serious tolerance issues that we had to deal with on a day to day basis. That doesn't mean that I don't hand build prototypes (I have probably hand built several hundred units over the years), but the advanced production methods are simply better, more consistent and more reliable.

It's one thing to have a personal preference for one build method over another, but it's a different thing to state that one method is more reliable when the numbers don't even come close to supporting it. I have had access over the years to numbers that I can't share (they are proprietary to the companies that I worked for), so I am 100% confident of my facts, and there are thousands of industry examples (like one that I gave) that support my position.

Also, it should be considered that many products would be impossible to build using the old fashioned, hand assembled, hand wired way of doing things. The density to support the feature set is just too high.

 

[bklee]

Oh man. Looks like a real winner. A true gem.

I have one now and it is great. You can go ampless, or you can use it as a preamp. However, I am having an issue with an AC adapter. I know it takes a 9-volt, pin negative 50mA, etc. I have one that seems to fill the bill except it has an output of 500mA. Is this important? Will it only draw as much current as it needs or do I risk overpowering the unit?

 

[Michael Eisenman]

Thanks, you are talking about in the table of contents where it should be the bright switch, right?

Looks like the feature change made it into the text of the manual but missed in the TOC link. Will get that changed.

I was looking for information about why there is no active/passive switch on the pedal and found that the latest version of the online manual (19/01/07) still mentions the presence of an active/passive switch in a couple of places:

REAR PANEL (CONTROLS & FEATURES)

DI OUT SOURCE SWITCH This switch selects the signal source routing that is used to derive the direct output signal. In the PRE position, the signal is sourced directly from the input buffer (pre gain control) and the active/passive switch sets the basic operating gain to provide a more uniform signal level to the DI OUTPUT signal...
​

TROUBLESHOOTING

DISTORTED AUDIO OUTPUT
1. Defective battery in active bass causing instrument’s onboard preamp to distort (replace battery)
2. Defective battery in PREAMP-DI causing preamp’s electronics to distort (replace battery)
3. With very hot 18V basses, it’s possible to overdrive the DI-PREAMP when in passive mode (switch to active mode)
...​

Finally, do the Input and Boost level controls affect the output level at the DI XLR in POST-EQ mode? The manual implies that they do.

 

[fauxtoe]

I have one now and it is great. You can go ampless, or you can use it as a preamp. However, I am having an issue with an AC adapter. I know it takes a 9-volt, pin negative 50mA, etc. I have one that seems to fill the bill except it has an output of 500mA. Is this important? Will it only draw as much current as it needs or do I risk overpowering the unit?

It's to my understanding that it will only draw the amperage that it's designed for. The 500mA is simply the maximum amount of current that is available. So after the unit draws its allotted 50mA, you still have 450mA to play with. This is why the daisy chains/splitters were invented so that you can power more than one pedal off a single power source. You just don't want to UNDER power it.

 

[agedhorse]

I was looking for information about why there is no active/passive switch on the pedal and found that the latest version of the online manual (19/01/07) still mentions the presence of an active/passive switch in a couple of places:

REAR PANEL (CONTROLS & FEATURES)

DI OUT SOURCE SWITCH This switch selects the signal source routing that is used to derive the direct output signal. In the PRE position, the signal is sourced directly from the input buffer (pre gain control) and the active/passive switch sets the basic operating gain to provide a more uniform signal level to the DI OUTPUT signal...
​

TROUBLESHOOTING

DISTORTED AUDIO OUTPUT
1. Defective battery in active bass causing instrument’s onboard preamp to distort (replace battery)
2. Defective battery in PREAMP-DI causing preamp’s electronics to distort (replace battery)
3. With very hot 18V basses, it’s possible to overdrive the DI-PREAMP when in passive mode (switch to active mode)
...​

Finally, do the Input and Boost level controls affect the output level at the DI XLR in POST-EQ mode? The manual implies that they do.

The troubleshooting section is shared with the regular Subway Pre-DI which has an active/passive switch, the plus has the range extended from active towards the CCW position to passive towards the CW position and covers the full range in between. Since there is no passive mode on the plus, this section doesn't apply. The active/passive switch was eliminated to make space for the bright switch that many players asked for.

In the post mode, yes both controls affect the DI output level.

 

[PBassTX]

I just ordered this pre-amp/DI based upon reviews only. I can’t believe that as long as this pedal has been out, there aren’t any demo videos out there...at least that I can find.

The primary purpose of this preamp is to have it for situations where I need to go direct to FOH with no back line and that will fit in the front pocket of a gig bag. I won’t be integrating it into a pedal board. I currently have a D800 if I use this preamp and go into the Aux input of the D800 and keep everything flat on the D800 EQ, would that basically turn my D800 into a D800+ if I use this preamp for shaping my tone?

 

[agedhorse]

Correct, the plus preamp replaces the D-800's preamp when used that way.