Mike Gordon (A tone discussion)

[HolmeBass]

Haha yeah you gotta be ready for the eq process. But you get faster at it the more you do it. I also historically have boosted my mids but since I've got this setup (obviously it depends on the room) but I basically cut some 40-50hz cut even more mids and even more high end. Like -8db somewhere 4-6k than add in the enhance to my liking.and I should say I'm still dialing it. Also that's for my derlin 1.6mm picks eq as of late.

That is an important consideration - both my buddy and I are almost exclusively finger style, with some minimal slapping. No pick playing.

But Mike uses all three techniques. Does he make adjustments, perhaps with the EQ on his bass, when switching styles?

 

[BGroovy]

I think Mike's pick attack is very important to his tone. He's pick playing probably 80% of the time (but uses other techniques scattered throughout.

 

[Pat Harris]

Love the 97-99 era for Mike tone with the SWR sitting on top. What strikes me most in memory as well as audio is how there is NOT a bunch of subby-sub in his tone. To my ears, it's very balanced until you get to a spike at 2kHz for that pick articulation to blast through. I think he started moving more air in 03-04, and certainly these days, there is more emphasis on "warm and woody" vs "cut."

 

[Gingerbass]

Love the 97-99 era for Mike tone with the SWR sitting on top. What strikes me most in memory as well as audio is how there is NOT a bunch of subby-sub in his tone. To my ears, it's very balanced until you get to a spike at 2kHz for that pick articulation to blast through. I think he started moving more air in 03-04, and certainly these days, there is more emphasis on "warm and woody" vs "cut."

Very good observation. I find when I go for that sound I'm doing a lot more cutting khz than boosting.

 

[Gingerbass]

Below is a 30 sec. clip of a soundcheck from my performance last Wednesday (excuse the playing as I am literally turning knobs in it this is just meant to show how the rig is sounding.) the picture is the eq I ended up with on that night. I am very curious to hear your opinions on where im at. I dont think I need to say this but I am not trying to be Mike playing wise. I just fell in love with his bass sound and think it is virtually perfect, some people want their bass to sound like Jaco others Marcus Miller. I just want to have my musical tool to sound like that one and I think ive got pretty close for a broke musician. I have learned alot since starting this thread and have been diving as deep as I can. What I can say with more confidence than ever is I believe Mike pans to the neck pickup at least 60/40 especially in 3.0 as evident in the 2012 rig run down video where he talks about the bass. its confusing but he IS trying to say that he uses the front pickup more. (I listened to those 3 sentences 10 times before I got what he was saying... thanks Mike lol) and thats exactly what im doing in this recording. Another big point brought up by @edwinhurwitz was most of Mikes Modulus basses are TBX and not just that I believe the Claro Walnut one has different qualities than what I think is a newer one with the Figured Walnut thats now offered. My guess is the Claro is a 35" tbx and the Figured is the 34" would love to know. but honestly thats most likely it. Im playing with Telefunkn 1.6 triangular Derlin pics and Ken smith Tapercore Round wounds in this recording not even the "Mike strings" and to me im like 80-90% there. I could eq the rig even better and do more in post to make it sound better. maybe get the Avalon u5 and CP-10 for more eq but this is recorded from my Eden wt-800 pre straight to a Midas m32 and tracked in Studio one. raw not even eqd. I think the TBX is the real thing im missing to get that last 20ish%. what do you guys think? Ill be making a kind of demo video on how to eq the rig but im swamped with band stuff rn and this is all I could suffice for now. cheers!

 

[loveandbass]

Couple things to note-

97-00 era Mike was a Q5 bolt on neck with round wounds (one or 2 different ones with EMGs) through swr sm-900 amp

2.0 mike started using a modulus TBX with Ken smith slick rounds and Eden wt-800

GHS brite flats are as close to the slick rounds as you can get because GHS makes the slick rounds for Ken smith and they are brite flats with a custom gauge.

I wanna know how to get that crazy late 90s phaser plunking sound he used to do (think the Worcester 98 weekapaug jam)

 

[cosmic]

Mike Gordon’s rig when he used the Eden head, Meyer EQ, and Meyer powered cabs. The EQ settings on the Eden:

Slight boost at 100Hz
Slight boost at 500Hz
Big cut at 1.2Hz
Big cut at 11Hz

 

[Gingerbass]

Mike Gordon’s rig when he used the Eden head, Meyer EQ, and Meyer powered cabs. The EQ settings on the Eden:

Slight boost at 100Hz
Slight boost at 500Hz
Big cut at 1.2Hz
Big cut at 11Hz

View attachment 7489458

I think the high end thing can give followed generally but if your playing a small to medium sized venue that low end boost is not gonna play well lol! I wonder how this changed venue to venue for him back than. I may have to try these settings at my next gig and report back!

 

[Gingerbass]

Ok gentleman this is from the man himself. I have been seemingly non stop working on my rig and with this little nugget I got out of Mike I think we are really getting somewhere. I will be making a demonstration video in the next few weeks but this was just to cool not to post. What a G. Cheers see yall at the Khol Center??

 

[brownbud]

I think something that doesn't get mentioned enough is the Avalon U5. And specifically, that the "tone" knob is set on #4. I've experimented with it, and when you dial it in to #4, you get that "oh yeah, that's Mike" setting. Also, the U5 is just a super nice, clean DI.

Another thing worth discussing is that there's a difference between his on-stage sound and what's sent to the house PA. Crazy as it is, the Meyer rig (and the parametric EQ) was only for his stage monitoring position, the split to the PA (from the Avalon) came before that in the signal chain.

I've wondered where the Eden sits in the chain, and whether it's even in the PA signal. Like, is the split to the PA before the Eden? In a webcast I've seen him adjust the Eden gain (pretty sure it was gain, not the main output) and thinking that if it were connected into the PA that he would have just juiced the output to the board. But of course nothing changed.

 

[Gingerbass]

I played a festival last weekend and backlined my rig for some very cool jam bands. One of them played a 5 string Lakland we plugged him in with my same "Mike EQ"and it sounded absolutely incredible. The depth and clarity is unbelievable when you bi-amp and send only 120hz and below to the 15" cab than balance the speakers slightly in favor of said 15" cab. Also I ran it with the horns completely off. Didn't have time to do a live run down but it's coming one day I promise. I'll try to post some of our set with isolated bass so you can hear where we are at in the mix at least since I am sending this eq to the board.

 

[Gingerbass]

I think something that doesn't get mentioned enough is the Avalon U5. And specifically, that the "tone" knob is set on #4. I've experimented with it, and when you dial it in to #4, you get that "oh yeah, that's Mike" setting. Also, the U5 is just a super nice, clean DI.

Another thing worth discussing is that there's a difference between his on-stage sound and what's sent to the house PA. Crazy as it is, the Meyer rig (and the parametric EQ) was only for his stage monitoring position, the split to the PA (from the Avalon) came before that in the signal chain.

I've wondered where the Eden sits in the chain, and whether it's even in the PA signal. Like, is the split to the PA before the Eden? In a webcast I've seen him adjust the Eden gain (pretty sure it was gain, not the main output) and thinking that if it were connected into the PA that he would have just juiced the output to the board. But of course nothing changed.

Dude amazing knowledge drop! I took a peak at his rig behind the stage at the kohl center and didn't see the U5. I don't think we know what is going on preamp wise anymore seems to be alot of behind the scenes stuff going on these days bass rig wise with him.

 

[brownbud]

Dude amazing knowledge drop! I took a peak at his rig behind the stage at the kohl center and didn't see the U5. I don't think we know what is going on preamp wise anymore seems to be alot of behind the scenes stuff going on these days bass rig wise with him.

Last I saw, the U5 was at the very bottom of the rack. But that stuff is always changing.

Re: preamps, I’ve played a Modulus Q5 > Avalon U5 > A&H SQ5 (quality mixer) > Meyer boxes and it sounded fantastic! I saw no need for a preamp. Especially since the Q5 has the active pickups…there’s plenty of signal. Now, I wasn’t using the same Meyer boxes (models) that Mike used, but the result was in the ballpark, and inspiring! I didn’t see a need for anything else…. Just the Q5 into the U5 DI into the mixer and then to some Meyer speakers. Simple and glorious

 

[Gingerbass]

Dude amazing knowledge drop! I took a peak at his rig behind the stage at the kohl center and didn't see the U5. I don't think we know what is going on preamp wise anymore seems to be alot of behind the scenes stuff going on these days bass rig wise with him.

Also I'd like to point out that in the late 90s-2000s it's said he was using the ada-mb1 bass preamp

Last I saw, the U5 was at the very bottom of the rack. But that stuff is always changing.

Re: preamps, I’ve played a Modulus Q5 > Avalon U5 > A&H SQ5 (quality mixer) > Meyer boxes and it sounded fantastic! I saw no need for a preamp. Especially since the Q5 has the active pickups…there’s plenty of signal. Now, I wasn’t using the same Meyer boxes (models) that Mike used, but the result was in the ballpark, and inspiring! I didn’t see a need for anything else…. Just the Q5 into the U5 DI into the mixer and then to some Meyer speakers. Simple and glorious

I would like to try the U5 one day for sure. Right now I have finally unlocked the Eden's potential after all these years. The sound im after is Mike's 03-04 tone. Ultra scooped and heavily eq'd. I'll upload some moments from my performance earlier this week so you can get an idea where im at in post at least.

 

[enjoi1018]

This thread is awesome. Subscribed!

I think the mention of his Meyer rig is a big part of everything. Specifically, the signal we are all hearing when we aren't 3 rows back from his Meyers, back in the day. I did that a couple times, and it was pretty other worldly. I know why he now stands on one of those sub pads... the amount of air that Meyer rig moved was nuts. It was so huge and overpowered that it truly was a wall of sound. Headroom? More like GrandCanyonroom.

My absolute favorite tone of Mike's is Fall/Winter 2010 into 2011. There's a presence, punch, and almost envelope quality to his cleaner tones that was, and still is to me, possibly the most standout bass tone I've ever heard. If there ever was a tone goal, even though I'm not Mike, this is it. Bar none.

Good phones/monitors, turn that volume up slightly higher than you would otherwise



Above two paragraphs mentioned, what I know I'm NOT hearing in these recordings I love so much are his Meyers! I'm hearing his TBX, his processing, his DI, and the EQing/mixing at the board that is then pumped out to whatever speakers I'm listening in. Headphones, car stereo, home stereo, my live PA, my Fearfuls I built to approximate a full-frequency-full-range set of speakers like his Meyers (yep, I've run these tracks through them for fun!).

So... where does that land us? Do I want to sound like this all the time? Garageband, live, and in my recordings through my looper? Or do I want this tone when I'm in front of my rig at the exact gigging volume of the night with the band? Or through the rig at late night volumes in my home? To a certain point, the above video sounds like that "magic tone" in ALL of the listening options above. But also... it doesn't sound like it does 20' in front of his old Meyer rig.

Discuss!!!

 

[enjoi1018]

Mike often talks about his appreciation for those who have carved new paths in bass tone. The video above is the most unique example of the instrument I can think of... it's a huge reason of why my Phish/Mike path is my own. I fell in love with the sound of his bass before I even knew his name or what Phish was all about... and I have never heard anything quite like this era of his tone.

I've spent so much time researching this and trying to get anywhere near the ballpark that I've very seriously thought of tagging Ian Martin Allison on his socials with the exact video above and said "I've exhausted all tone chasing avenues. You are next, if anyone can get close, you can! Especially with your knowledge of the Helix/HX Stomp arcitecture, which I use very often."

 

[Gingerbass]

This thread is awesome. Subscribed!

I think the mention of his Meyer rig is a big part of everything. Specifically, the signal we are all hearing when we aren't 3 rows back from his Meyers, back in the day. I did that a couple times, and it was pretty other worldly. I know why he now stands on one of those sub pads... the amount of air that Meyer rig moved was nuts. It was so huge and overpowered that it truly was a wall of sound. Headroom? More like GrandCanyonroom.

My absolute favorite tone of Mike's is Fall/Winter 2010 into 2011. There's a presence, punch, and almost envelope quality to his cleaner tones that was, and still is to me, possibly the most standout bass tone I've ever heard. If there ever was a tone goal, even though I'm not Mike, this is it. Bar none.

Good phones/monitors, turn that volume up slightly higher than you would otherwise



Above two paragraphs mentioned, what I know I'm NOT hearing in these recordings I love so much are his Meyers! I'm hearing his TBX, his processing, his DI, and the EQing/mixing at the board that is then pumped out to whatever speakers I'm listening in. Headphones, car stereo, home stereo, my live PA, my Fearfuls I built to approximate a full-frequency-full-range set of speakers like his Meyers (yep, I've run these tracks through them for fun!).

So... where does that land us? Do I want to sound like this all the time? Garageband, live, and in my recordings through my looper? Or do I want this tone when I'm in front of my rig at the exact gigging volume of the night with the band? Or through the rig at late night volumes in my home? To a certain point, the above video sounds like that "magic tone" in ALL of the listening options above. But also... it doesn't sound like it does 20' in front of his old Meyer rig.

Discuss!!!

Wow I feel as though a can of worms has been opened lol. So the cool thing about the eden is if you pull the enhance knob out you actually send the eq from your amp to the board. So currently im going back and forth show to show. Basically if im not able to work with the sound guy I just send him my eq and pray lol. If I can work with him ill send him the super scooped signal with no eq and plug in my wireless system and go to the board. I've found the frequencies we need to adjust at the board are similar but not the same as on stage with the eden. Also I see alot of guys doing the ampless thing doing iems I also use iems but still keep my amp on stage because 95% of my gigs there many people dancing right in front of the stage. And with no monitor volume or bass amp on stage you just get pure mud till like 30 feet back. Furthermore I also am a HUGE fan of that era. I decided I was going to be a bass player in bands for the rest of my life at superball 2011 when he still had the 4x18s. I locked in with him and knew every note he was going to play 4 notes ahead of time for 15 min. That was enough for me to say screw it im doing that lol. The way his bass sounded at those first shows I saw changed my life. The depth the clarity and my god the fundamental tone!! Absolutely walluping low end. That said Worcester 03 is the best Mike tone ever in my opinion. I've listened to the whole tour night by night and the night before the Worcester show they figured something out and the bass was pure clean thunder. Cheers bud welcome over!

 

[Gingerbass]

Mike often talks about his appreciation for those who have carved new paths in bass tone. The video above is the most unique example of the instrument I can think of... it's a huge reason of why my Phish/Mike path is my own. I fell in love with the sound of his bass before I even knew his name or what Phish was all about... and I have never heard anything quite like this era of his tone.

I've spent so much time researching this and trying to get anywhere near the ballpark that I've very seriously thought of tagging Ian Martin Allison on his socials with the exact video above and said "I've exhausted all tone chasing avenues. You are next, if anyone can get close, you can! Especially with your knowledge of the Helix/HX Stomp arcitecture, which I use very often."

I can't wait to post some of the stuff from my last show when I get off work lol. Dude we in there. I had Mike give me se eq info on the hotline very recently and it changed everything! 13 years of playing the wt800 and I have never been this close by a long shot. Gimme a few hours lol

 

[Gingerbass]

This thread is awesome. Subscribed!

I think the mention of his Meyer rig is a big part of everything. Specifically, the signal we are all hearing when we aren't 3 rows back from his Meyers, back in the day. I did that a couple times, and it was pretty other worldly. I know why he now stands on one of those sub pads... the amount of air that Meyer rig moved was nuts. It was so huge and overpowered that it truly was a wall of sound. Headroom? More like GrandCanyonroom.

My absolute favorite tone of Mike's is Fall/Winter 2010 into 2011. There's a presence, punch, and almost envelope quality to his cleaner tones

Also that envelope thing your talking about. It's my favorite thing about his tone. And one thing after all these years I can say with the most confidence is that that sound is for sure 100% the scoop. Now taming the scoop has been the thing that unlocked everything for me. When I post some audio in a bit I will put down a super detailed list of everything im doing.

 

[enjoi1018]

Yes, can of worms, indeed. The hotline has me super interested... haven't called in a long time and need to get back to that.

I have a Eden Navigator preamp that I use with a Crown XLS1502 for my Fearfuls (also recently acquired an SVT4-PRO, but that's a whole 'nother adventure). I am not sure at all about the push/pull of my Enhance knob... the Navigator has so many routing options, I'm guessing it's a different beast with different controls. I'd kill to find a USA WT-800B, as Mike says there is some magic in those compared to the As and Cs of that model.

The one thing about my Nav... it's had some pots replaced and has a slight bit of noise. I've taken it to a local amp tech who, long story short, said it was something to do with the old PCBs and that it couldn't be fixed. Some fine and very knowledgeable folks on TB told me that was malarkey and that the issue could almost certainly be traced, but I'm in a region with not a lot of qualified amp techs around. It'd work fine on a gig, but not comfortable enough to schlep it around without the issue being fixed... hence the Ampeg venture. Classic tone works just fine with the Modulus and my classic rock/funk band.