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Mini 0r Micro Amps.... I Must Be Missing Something?

I again would not make comparisons within one brand (especially Ampeg) and then make blanket statements about an entire category of amps:smug:
LOL! You think Ampegs are the only micros I ever played? This may come as a shock, but I've not only played other micros besides Ampeg, I've actually owned non-Ampeg amps in the past.

Edit: Put another way, it would not be at all suprising that if you tried a different amp than you are used to, it would sound different, and might sound 'better' to you. That could be due to a hundred design issues, most of which would be more likely as causal drivers than power amp topology. It is kind of like saying 'I tried a red amp, and I liked it better, so I can see why some use red amps'!
Sorry, I disagree.

That does not mean that some totally and validly like a DB750 versus a Glockenklang Blue Soul (for example). They do sound very different. It is when you start saying that the 'difference is due to the topology' that things get 'inaccurate':)

To your point, there is no micro that sounds like an SWR900. There is also no 'non SMPS amp' that sounds like a Walter Woods. Different strokes, not better or worse or 'tigher' or 'looser' at all in general.
Better or worse? No. Tighter or looser? I think there is much validity to that one. Some micros are tighter than others, and make no mistake...I'm a fan of the micro format, but I've yet to play a micro that was as tight as a trad SS or hybrid amp. Take the DB751 and TH500 for example. Both sound very good and relatively similar, but the DB751 is considerably tighter IMHO.

YMMV, and it obviously does V for you, but I know what I'm hearing.
 
LOL! You think Ampegs are the only micros I ever played? This may come as a shock, but I've not only played other micros besides Ampeg, I've actually owned non-Ampeg amps in the past.


Sorry, I disagree.


Better or worse? No. Tighter or looser? I think there is much validity to that one. Some micros are tighter than others, and make no mistake...I'm a fan of the micro format, but I've yet to play a micro that was as tight as a trad SS or hybrid amp. Take the DB751 and TH500 for example. Both sound very good and relatively similar, but the DB751 is considerably tighter IMHO.

YMMV, and it obviously does V for you, but I know what I'm hearing.

As usual, TOTALLY disagree with every one of your points.:) Seriously, though, I like many amps better than many other amps. Some that I love are traditional power supply amps, some I hate are class D amps. That is for sure. If you totally dig the sound of a DB751, or you totally dig a Shuttle 9.2., there won't be another amp that will sound exactly like either of them. So, again +1, I totally understand that some who like a particular amp that is not SMPS have not found another amp of any class that sounds the same.

Again, if your premise was true, all those big front of house systems we all play through would not be driven virtually 100% now by class D / SMPS amps!

Edit: I also agree that the much higher wattage DB751 stays more controlled at extremely high volumes than the lower powered TH500 :p:smug::cool:
 
I guess it is hard to do a search on this particular topic, but a thread like this comes up about every month or so on the site.

Yes, you are missing a number of things.

First, the options/features you describe, like dual mono operation, are totally unimportant to many players. So, don't assume the benefits that you think are important are important to everyone.

Secondly, for those of us who play at a professional level, and/or in the pop, jazz, or funk world, it is a rare (if any) gig that can't be handled by a 410/212/115 sized cab (or even a 112 or 210 in many cased). Put another way, for many players like myself, I never, ever have to be louder than an unmic'd drummer. So, that 400-600 watt power range into a moderate size cab with good efficiency handles every gig I need. So, again, zero advantage to more power.

Thirdly, combine that with the difference schlep's we all have (in my case, I play mostly on the road in large cities, and often walk blocks to the venue from my car), as long as I don't compromise my tone, the smaller the better!

Your comment on reliability is not supported in fact. Yes, some amp companies seem to have high failure rates, but if you look at a company like GK, there are just as many problem posts on their 'non class D' amps as there are on their class D amps. Don't confuse amplifier topology with brand or production/design quality.

So, if you don't 'listen with your eyes', you will find, like many of us who kind of make a hobby out of checking out gear, that there is virtually no measurable differences among different amp topologies (except, I guess, all tube amps, which are kind of a different thing when pushed to overdrive). Put another way, if you 'blind tested' 10 non SMPS amps (that is really what makes a small amp small and light) with 10 different SMPS amps (class D or not), no one could IMO and IME reliably identify the topology above the range of chance. All 20 amps will sound different, of course, and you would dig some and not others. However, it would not be defined clearly by the two power topology groups.

That being said, if you play really loud, and for some reason feel you need multiple 4ohm cabinets or whatever, a PA amp and preamp is a valid option. Of course, using your logic, I am sure there is someone out there that would say 'why not use a CA9.... it's the same size, and what's another 40 pounds:p There is a reason that 'heavy PA amps' have virtually disappeared, even from high end concert level sound companies.... there is not advantage to the weight regarding performance:smug:

That pretty much covers it...

If you're doing 1-2 gigs and 3 rehearsals a week, a rack system gets old fast.

You could very easily reverse the question and ask why the hell you would put yourself through needing to lug that thing everywhere - particularly when many users seem to just want to fill them up with pretty flashing lights. :hiding:
 
3. Inability to load in where you are being paid to play.
4. Wasting energy (although what I proposed weighs about the same... PF-500 versus the XLS 1500 and a preamp.)

I did not mean to make a general statement about all manufacturer's amplifiers, my listing is for the companies that make the small heads. If if you do a search on the smaller amps, there are many complaints, which I did not expect when I was searching the threads. To me, it appears that many of them were with the PF-500, but to be fair, they probably outsold most of the other amps as well and they have probably remedied these problems as fast as they found them. I am a big Ampeg fan, starting with my B-15N which I have had a long time.

I'm also not advocating using heavy rigs. I'm wondering out loud, what is the advantage to hauling something that weighs a few pounds less and half the size?
 
I understand the convenience of these small heads, TC, Ampeg, Aguilar, GK, GB, MB etc. especially if you ride a bicycle. I even ordered the PF-500, primarily looking for a small backup for tube amps.

I realized I have to carry it and whether it's on top of my cab or in a case, I still have to move it. A power amp (I'm using a Crown XLS1500) has way more power, ohm and cab options, these mini's just aren't worth the problems people are posting on TB. Yes, you need a preamp either racked or in pedal form, but it's worth it.

PF-500 cancelled. Call me when they have one the size of a pack of cards, that works. :hiding:

So long as you are satisfied with what you already have then you are missing nothing. ;)
 
Vin's point I will agree with...if I'm going to go heavy, I'd just as soon go all-tube rather than SS.

OK, I know that wasn't the point he was making ;) but I certainly don't want to lug a rack with a trad SS head anymore, and I'm quite happy with micros for what they are. I still totally feel, though, that each type of amp (tube, trad SS/hybrid, micro SS/hybrid) has unique qualities to itself that exclusive to that format, and I've yet to play any amps that have made me feel differently.
 
I understand the convenience of these small heads, TC, Ampeg, Aguilar, GK, GB, MB etc. especially if you ride a bicycle. I even ordered the PF-500, primarily looking for a small backup for tube amps.

I realized I have to carry it and whether it's on top of my cab or in a case, I still have to move it. A power amp (I'm using a Crown XLS1500) has way more power, ohm and cab options, these mini's just aren't worth the problems people are posting on TB. Yes, you need a preamp either racked or in pedal form, but it's worth it.

PF-500 cancelled. Call me when they have one the size of a pack of cards, that works. :hiding:

I don't see the logic in this argument. You have an opinion but it's specific to your personal situation and it is not generalizable. Also, you are flat mistaken when you complain about problems with micro heads.

- I don't need a separate preamp and judging by the comments on TB, most people here don't need one either.
- I DO need light weight, as I've tweaked my back while moving heavy cabs and amps around.
- The Genz-Benz Shuttle system I'm using now lets me carry amp and cab in one hand (36 pounds) and a separate cab in another hand (32 pounds) and my system is complete and capable of producing up to 600W, which is a lot more than I actually use.
- I've never had a problem with my Genz-Benz gear, and if I do, I challenge anyone to list a brand that offers faster and more responsive technical advice and support than G-B provides here on TalkBass.

If you personally don't need a micro amp, don't buy one. For some of us us they make perfect sense, and are in fact much preferable logistically to larger amps.
 
So long as you are satisfied with what you already have then you are missing nothing. ;)

+1 I can totally understand where any sort of small rig would not be any advantage at all (unless, like me, you find a couple that totally speak to you).

If you play in a 'band' with group load ins, play in bars in smaller cities where you just role the stuff from the parking lot to the stage, there really wouldn't be much of an advantage to a smaller rig per se.

If you always do your load ins yourself, play in difficult to load in venues, don't need to play louder than 'professional players' who match their volume to the drum stage volume, and have some cash, there are small rigs that totally outperform much bigger, heavy ones, and happen to be under 40-60 pounds in total (amp, cab, cables):bassist:
 
Agreed. My ab of the th500 vs db750 concluded there is still a considerable gap the advantage going to the big head for dynamics, tone, tightness, lack of compression in the low end. The micro heads are great and if you don't ab gig both you will be happy with the micro. Once you try the big head at a typical medium gig you will feel and notice the difference. For super low volume coffee shops or in your basement at low vol not much difference. I dumped all micros accept a lm tube which I love and went back to a db751 for my main head. My bands I play with are happier now. 42lbs isn't going to kill me and I need the workout anyway. Now an 90 lb svt that's another story.
 
Agreed. My ab of the th500 vs db750 concluded there is still a considerable gap the advantage going to the big head for dynamics, tone, tightness, lack of compression in the low end. The micro heads are great and if you don't ab gig both you will be happy with the micro. Once you try the big head at a typical medium gig you will feel and notice the difference. For super low volume coffee shops or in your basement at low vol not much difference. I dumped all micros accept a lm tube which I love and went back to a db751 for my main head. My bands I play with are happier now. 42lbs isn't going to kill me and I need the workout anyway. Now an 90 lb svt that's another story.


I agree that the DB751 and the TH500 sound a bit different, and have MANY differences beyond the power supply, including multiple tubes in the preamp and meaningfully different power ratings. Luckily, I actually like the tone of the TH500 better... much more midrange punch and definition, and better hi passing to my ear. However, pure IMO there.

I again totally disagree with you extending that to all amps within each class. You probably got a hint of this when you compared the Thunderfunk to the LMTube. You would get an even more 'shocking' confirmation of what I'm saying if you compared the Thunderfunk to the Glockenklang Blue Soul or the Puma900:smug:
 
I've got nothing but amazing things to say about my Carvin BX500. I've never had any issues out of it and couldn't imagine it for a fairer price than the $399 I bought it for. Tone is one thing, but why carry more than you need to? I can even use it as a massively powerful 1000w power amp (that weighs a LITTLE over 5lbs) to push my VT Bass Deluxe if I wish.

Tonally, I am a huge fan of all tube amps, but if we're talking SS and SS what in the world do you have to lose with a class-d SMPS micro head? I have two 15" eminence legends in a 2x15 ported cabinet and the Carvin pushes them with no problems whatsoever.
 
If you always do your load ins yourself, play in difficult to load in venues, don't need to play louder than 'professional players' who match their volume to the drum stage volume, and have some cash, there are small rigs that totally outperform much bigger, heavy ones, and happen to be under 40-60 pounds in total (amp, cab, cables):bassist:

Even if you don't play with 'professional players', do you really need to get into volume wars on stage? I never turn up the amp more than 1/2 way. Any more than that and it is just too loud on stage. I just turn up the bass in the PA.
 
Even if you don't play with 'professional players', do you really need to get into volume wars on stage? I never turn up the amp more than 1/2 way. Any more than that and it is just too loud on stage. I just turn up the bass in the PA.

+1 I was using 'professional' as a proxy for 'not idiots'! No reason for massive stage volume. Even if you don't have front of house support, you still are volume limited by unmic'd drums.
 
I've got nothing but amazing things to say about my Carvin BX500. I've never had any issues out of it and couldn't imagine it for a fairer price than the $399 I bought it for. Tone is one thing, but why carry more than you need to? I can even use it as a massively powerful 1000w power amp (that weighs a LITTLE over 5lbs) to push my VT Bass Deluxe if I wish.

Tonally, I am a huge fan of all tube amps, but if we're talking SS and SS what in the world do you have to lose with a class-d SMPS micro head? I have two 15" eminence legends in a 2x15 ported cabinet and the Carvin pushes them with no problems whatsoever.

How do you get 1000 watts out of the BX500 ?
 
I think one of the sweet spots is the solid state heads is in the 12 to 20 pound class.

I've owned (and gigged) SWR, AMP, Eden and Thunderfunk in that class. Every one of them sounded great, just different shades of great. I'd be content with virtually anything from that class as a desert island head. The micro stuff I don't like as much.

Purely personal opinion.
 
Sorry, but I'm going to cry foul on the "big is good" camp.

The OP tries to replace a large, expensive rack rig with an entry-level $400 Ampeg micro. He finds that it doesn't compare to his big rig, and he draws the inference that therefore, all micros suck. No offense, but the premise is ridiculous. At least compare top of the line to top of the line. A Puma 900, for instance, will fare far better against a rack rig.

Ditto for the claim that the $2,400, 42lb Aguilar DB751 sounded "bigger" than the $700, 500-watt TH500. And for the argument that the underpowered and overweight Ampeg PF500 doesn't offer substantially more portability than a featherweight class D rack-mount power amp.

This is not a surprise...

How about a more realistic comparison?

Lets daisy-chain a pair of G-K MB800's (bench tested at a total of over 1,500 cool-running RMS watts, according Bass Gear magazine) into the OP's choice of four 8 ohm cabs. That's only $1,400 worth of amplification, less than 10lb, and they both fit into the pocket of my gig bag.

Then we'll drive the same load with a DB751, and see which rig moves more air (or blows more drivers).

No, wait, that's not fair. I can buy a third MB800 and an ABY switch for a total of over 2,000 watts, and still have hundred$ left over in comparison to the purchase price of a single DB751. Still want to play?

While we're comparing portability, let's take the 3 G-K micros, which weigh a total of 15lb, feature 2-channel switching, 4-band EQ, and fit into a small courier bag. To get an apples-to-apples comparison, we'll take the power amp, which is useless by itself, and put it in a rack along with a decent preamp.

The big-is-better crowd doesn't see the point of saving weight, so let's use a 17lb Aguilar DB680. I'll concede that the rack rig is a pretty nice setup, but total weight is nearly 40lb, it doesn't have a shoulder strap, and it doesn't even have a foot-switchable solo boost.

Seems to me, that the micros are doing pretty good...
 
It's always the case with bass gear that the new stuff receives the burden of proof.

The way I look at it, a micro head is simply what a mainstream engineer would design if given a blank sheet today. If you combine the micro technology (switchmode power supply and power amp) with a mature understanding of what makes bass gear sound good, you end up with a micro head that sounds good.

On the other hand, if you don't like the sound of a particular amp, then you try different amps until you find one that makes you happy. Since plenty of "macro" heads are still on the market, you'll certainly have more variety to choose from if you consider amps without regard to their weight.
 
I agree that the DB751 and the TH500 sound a bit different, and have MANY differences beyond the power supply, including multiple tubes in the preamp and meaningfully different power ratings. Luckily, I actually like the tone of the TH500 better... much more midrange punch and definition, and better hi passing to my ear. However, pure IMO there.

I again totally disagree with you extending that to all amps within each class. You probably got a hint of this when you compared the Thunderfunk to the LMTube. You would get an even more 'shocking' confirmation of what I'm saying if you compared the Thunderfunk to the Glockenklang Blue Soul or the Puma900:smug:

I agree and do like certain micros like the lm tube I got, even better than the thunder funks. However, there is something when playing a db750/1 and a SVT with the dynamics, feel to the notes I have yet to experience with any micro head. The thunderfunk also didn't have this feel. I just feel more expressive musically at medium volumes with this extra headroom and heft.

Another thing that I can get with the 750 is just a truly deep full and uncompressed low B that I have yet to find in a micro as good. Just inspiring to use that first position occasionally in the right arrangement. That takes big iron ime. Even at med volume. Slapping down low takes Monsterous power too to sound tight and fat.

Playing through an svt is still number one for me for playing live with the db750/1 close. The svts i had sounded so good through the berg hs410s i have been using as my std cab he last 4 years. Im sure many third party audience members in a blind test would most like agree svts sounds best as well. The db751 is the best compromise between svt and a micro IMO. Both in weight and the most true SS/tube hybrid I have heard.