Minor scale/mode theory question

[Whousedtoplay]

In my own amateur language, I hear a repetitive bassline consisting of two parts/bars (with some slight variations, I think), first part A-A-Bb-A-Bb-A-C second part A-A-Bb-A-Bb-A-D alternatively A-A-Bb-A-Bb-C-D. So I thought Am Phrygian or Locrian. Is this "cognitive" approach wrong/inadequate?

I hear a repetitive bass line as
(with some rhythmic variations)
D-A A | Bb A Bb A |

Rarely, the bass plays C after Bb instead of D.

Four times the bass plays the riff starting with D, then, repeated twice, the same rhythmic riff but starting with C.
Four times D, two times C.

 

[Phaidrus]

I hear a repetitive bass line as
(with some rhythmic variations)
D-A A | Bb A Bb A |

Rarely, the bass plays C after Bb instead of D.

Four times the bass plays the riff starting with D, then, repeated twice, the same rhythmic riff but starting with C.
Four times D, two times C.

It's a catchy li'l bassline, isn't it.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It's a catchy li'l bassline, isn't it.

My superficial observation is that the bass plays the riff (starting with D) with the Dm chord.
When we have a chord change to Am, the bass starts the riff with C.
When the harmony moves to the C chord, it happens during the riff tail with those A and Bb notes.

 

[HolmeBass]

I hear that as Dm (Aeolian) melody, the bass is playing notes that fit A Phrygian. It's F / Dm.

When the bass part is ambiguous, I listen to the other instruments...including vocal melody.

A Phrygian and D Aeolian are the same notes - they both have F major as their Ionian mode.

In my own amateur language, I hear a repetitive bassline consisting of two parts/bars (with some slight variations, I think), first part A-A-Bb-A-Bb-A-C second part A-A-Bb-A-Bb-A-D alternatively A-A-Bb-A-Bb-C-D. So I thought Am Phrygian or Locrian. Is this "cognitive" approach wrong/inadequate?

If the song is in Dm, it is A Phrygian. If the song is in Gm (or Bb Major) it is A Locrian. Sounds like it’s A Phrygian.

Or you could think of it as Dm but the bass line never plays the root.

 

[Carl Hillman]

The tune is in D natural minor, so A is the fifth. A D natural minor scale works over both of the chord changes Dm and C.

While the Bb is part of that scale, it's not really a part of any harmonic function (there are no chords being played that it would be considered a part of). It's just a kind of little half-step up and down chromatic deviation. The bassist could just as well have played a G# there, or a Bb and a G# both around the A.

 

[glocke1]

i give it a quick shot, and the 'e' fits better to my ears than the 'e flat'. but hey, wdfdik?

Yes, in the context of this track it probably doesn't matter, especially when nobody's playing the fifth. But I'll listen closer just in case.

@bholder
I will do!

@Lobster11
Yes, I suppose. I'm an amateur bass player trying to figure out the theory while playing along favorite tracks.

If you want to figure out theory in a useful and practical manner get up with a teacher or take some jazz improv classes if available in your area. Learning how to play through jazz tunes and how they are structured is really the best way to get an understanding of music theory and harmony. You don't have to do this with the goal of becoming a heavy jazzer, but going through that exercise will be quite helpful if you want to understand theory better.

Modes are something I think of as nothing more than " quicksand for the amateur musician " (everyone knows how dangerous and widespread quicksand was when they were kids right???). They are really something I think people spend too much time trying to wrap their head around and how they fit into music, and personally I view them the same as I viewed all those biochemical pathways I had to study and memorize in college, useful to be aware of but largely not practical information to keep handy mentally.



Regarding the tune in question, I just listened for a few seconds but all I really heard was what sounded like a droning bass line playing a pedal tone with a little movement here and there and FWIW I highly doubt anyone in this group was thinking, "hmmm..the bass would best be played using the notes from the Phrygian or locrian mode".

 

[JimmyM]

Lee Scratch Perry and those fantastic Black Ark roots players probably never heard the words "Phrygian" or "Locrian" in their lives.

Word

 

[Whousedtoplay]

In my own amateur language, I hear a repetitive bassline consisting of two parts/bars (with some slight variations, I think), first part A-A-Bb-A-Bb-A-C second part A-A-Bb-A-Bb-A-D alternatively A-A-Bb-A-Bb-C-D. So I thought Am Phrygian or Locrian. Is this "cognitive" approach wrong/inadequate?

To me, it's the very diatonic D natural scale,
Here are all the notes of that scale in the flute's melody.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...9/?temp_hash=aa328873e97095eb3e7bc54a71e23b57




..., but it's Dub; therefore, one could find some "strange" stylish, "zesty flavoring" like throwing a loud Eb with Dm.
It's at 2:51 from the track.

Here is an excerpt.
Eb around 0:03)

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...5/?temp_hash=c4be041b331020259e654240dab4216b


Another one Eb with Dm.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=03ecadbe2a055fd81d0a4d7d9f9d9216

At the very end, we hear a new chord (zest - it's Dub), Db major, and the vocal sings
Db - F(kind of blues) - Gb - Ab.
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=38d8b2a1b8e2afff5ca933066af92930

 

[SteveCS]

Is it possible to tell whether a bassline (within a song) is in Phrygian or Locrian mode if the fifth is not known/played? Namely, if only the first, second, third and forth are played?

Question prompted by this track, which I believe is in Am Phrygian or Locrian:

Forget modes, especially those of the Major scale. This thing is in the minor key, primarily i and (b)VII. Contrary to popular opinion, the major scale and its 7 modes do not cover 99.9% of western music.

 

[Mushroo]

The song in question is in the key of D Minor.

But (to play devil's advocate): Even if the song were hypothetically in the key of D Major that doesn't rule out using the notes Bb and C natural in the bass line.

The key of a song is all about its tonal center, not the notes that you play. It's easy to come up with examples of songs that use all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, and yet are firmly in a major or minor key.

Trying to figure out the key of a song, by making a list of all the notes that occur in the song, is a very common rookie mistake on music-theory forums. But music doesn't work that way.

 

[Ekulati]

For everyone saying this is not modal, you're simply incorrect. People learn about modes, and that we all must learn them, on the Interwebs every day. Therefore it must be modal.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The song in question is in the key of D Minor.

But (to play devil's advocate): Even if the song were hypothetically in the key of D Major that doesn't rule out using the notes Bb and C natural in the bass line.

The key of a song is all about its tonal center, not the notes that you play. It's easy to come up with examples of songs that use all 12 notes of the chromatic scale, and yet are firmly in a major or minor key.

Trying to figure out the key of a song, by making a list of all the notes that occur in the song, is a very common rookie mistake on music-theory forums. But music doesn't work that way.

You've changed your Avatar.
Cool.

 

[glocke1]

For everyone saying this is not modal, you're simply incorrect. People learn about modes, and that we all must learn them, on the Interwebs every day. Therefore it must be modal.

i don’t understand why people get so fixated on modes. It’s almost like they are viewed as some mystical/magical path to becoming a great player.

 

[Mushroo]

You've changed your Avatar.
Cool.

Hi friend! Thanks for noticing my avatar. I took up photography as a new hobby, during the quarantine.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

I guess I'm more amazed by the absolute diversity of answers and explanations.

And yeah I agree, I don't think the bass player was ever thinking about modes. LOL

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Hi friend! Thanks for noticing my avatar. I took up photography as a new hobby, during the quarantine.

I'm happy for you.

 

[Benjamin Earl]

It sounds like D minor to me. I hear a D in the bass at the beginning of the line (sometimes it goes to C). Then the majority of the time the bass pedals on A and Bb. D natural minor has the same notes as A phrygian, so to my ears that would work.

A locrian doesn't sound as good, especially the section where the bass goes to C. This section sounds like C major to me. C major has an E, not Eb. A phrygian would work better there too.

 

[Snarf]

This track is in D minor. Guitar part goes between D minor and A minor chords.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

This track is in D minor. Guitar part goes between D minor and A minor chords.

...plus, C major.

 

[Klangfarbe]

Some of you guys really need to tune their instruments\ ears properly. Where do you hear the Eb? There is no Eb in there! From the Dub Connection Dm natural.mp3 example:

The green marked events corespond to the Flute melody. Decending from C over Bb A G to F.
The only other event (Red) that comes even halfway close to Eb is some percusion or a sound effect. But even that is quite clearly an E.