Mixing Live Bass with multiple guitars

[Muthertucker]

Hey!

I am slowly turning into a tone snob, and for someone that tries to play a variety of styles in a single show, I have some questions from experienced gigging musicians on how they deal with keeping a nice mix when switching basses and streamlining going back and forth without having to dance on pedals or completely re-EQ your amp.

As far as my rig goes, here's what I got

Amp: Mesa Strategy 8:88 (425 tube watts)
Cab: Markbass 2x12
Pedals:
- Mesa Amp Footswitch (Mute, Solo (boost), Voice (EQ preset on/off), EQ (amp's 9-band EQ on/off), and EFX on/off)
- MXR Compressor
- MXR Bass Octave
- MXR Envelope Filter
- MXR 10 band EQ
- MXR Bass DI
- EH POG
Guitars:
- Mayones Viking 5
- Fender American Elite P Bass
- MG Bass Desert Custom 5

I feel like besides maybe an A/B switch if I wanted to leave all my guitars plugged in, I doubt I need more gear, though open to recommendations if there are good solutions. These are all great basses with great tones, but I have such a tweaker's amp and so many EQing options that sometimes, dialing in a very specific tone for one bass will make my other basses sound like total crap. I'd love to hear opinions about switching easily and how others go about this.

 

[Stumbo]

Hey!

I am slowly turning into a tone snob, and for someone that tries to play a variety of styles in a single show, I have some questions from experienced gigging musicians on how they deal with keeping a nice mix when switching basses and streamlining going back and forth without having to dance on pedals or completely re-EQ your amp.

As far as my rig goes, here's what I got

Amp: Mesa Strategy 8:88 (425 tube watts)
Cab: Markbass 2x12
Pedals:
- Mesa Amp Footswitch (Mute, Solo (boost), Voice (EQ preset on/off), EQ (amp's 9-band EQ on/off), and EFX on/off)
- MXR Compressor
- MXR Bass Octave
- MXR Envelope Filter
- MXR 10 band EQ
- MXR Bass DI
- EH POG
Guitars:
- Mayones Viking 5
- Fender American Elite P Bass
- MG Bass Desert Custom 5

I feel like besides maybe an A/B switch if I wanted to leave all my guitars plugged in, I doubt I need more gear, though open to recommendations if there are good solutions. These are all great basses with great tones, but I have such a tweaker's amp and so many EQing options that sometimes, dialing in a very specific tone for one bass will make my other basses sound like total crap. I'd love to hear opinions about switching easily and how others go about this.

Seems like you need a digital solution, maybe Line 6.

 

[bwildt]

If you are a tone snob, this might not work for you. I like multi-effect units, mostly because I can have presets. I'm getting too old to stoop down and change pedal settings. My current unit is a Zoom B3n. You could set up multiples of a specific effect, each optimized for a specific bass. I sometimes play with flat strings and sometimes rounds. I hate swapping basses mid-set, so some of my presets are duplicated with specific tweaks for flats or rounds.

 

[bwildt]

One the other hand, probably almost no one (except you) notices the difference in your carefully tweaked tone settings. Especially 1) when competing with drums and guitars in an ensemble setting and 2) using PA support for your bass and having a dedicated sound guy.

I can take wildly different instruments to my cover band gigs and no one comments on the specific sound, everyone just says, "the bass sounds great." This includes our sound guy, who is very good at his job. Sometimes I pick a bass for the night simply based on how it will look on stage and how it will go with the shirt I am wearing. I understand and accept that you are probably more picky about your sound than I am.

 

[two fingers]

This won't be popular, but here goes.

I'm a sound guy too. And what you're proposing is a sound guy's worst nightmare. We already have to juggle guitarists and keyboard players coming up with different tones for every song.

Also, I play all passive basses. I dime my tone knob and sometimes stwitch pickups (after I dial in my tone to the room). AMD that's it. I play in all kinds of bands (I do a lot of fill-in gigs). I play all kinds of music. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in your audience cares if you sound exactly like Jamerson on "My Girl" and just like Ross Valory on "Don't Stop Believing". Nobody.

My suggestion? Find a great tone for your your BAND, NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. Sure, stomp your pedals as needed (I do). Boist here and switch to your bridge pickup there. But your core sound shouldn't be completely different for every song. It's not worth the hassle and your sound guy will eventually give up and quit trying to find you. (Ask me how I know.) I'm not going to do 50 sound checks every night.

Try to put yourself in the sound guy's shoes. How, exactly, is he/she supposed to literally remix the band every single song? What's soundcheck for if you're all going to sound completely different every song?

(I know the argument so don't bother. "Screw him. That's not my problem. I'm the bass player and I've spent years honing MY craft and MY sound. And good sound guy will be able to dial us back in by the third bar of every song." Yep. You've obviously spent exactly zero minutes mixing a band. Good luck with that. )

I'll see myself out.

 

[Muthertucker]

This won't be popular, but here goes.

I'm a sound guy too. And what you're proposing is a sound guy's worst nightmare. We already have to juggle guitarists and keyboard players coming up with different tones for every song.

Also, I play all passive basses. I dime my tone knob and sometimes stwitch pickups (after I dial in my tone to the room). AMD that's it. I play in all kinds of bands (I do a lot of fill-in gigs). I play all kinds of music. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in your audience cares if you sound exactly like Jamerson on "My Girl" and just like Ross Valory on "Don't Stop Believing". Nobody.

My suggestion? Find a great tone for your your BAND, NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. Sure, stomp your pedals as needed (I do). Boist here and switch to your bridge pickup there. But your core sound shouldn't be completely different for every song. It's not worth the hassle and your sound guy will eventually give up and quit trying to find you. (Ask me how I know.) I'm not going to do 50 sound checks every night.

Try to put yourself in the sound guy's shoes. How, exactly, is he/she supposed to literally remix the band every single song? What's soundcheck for if you're all going to sound completely different every song?

(I know the argument so don't bother. "Screw him. That's not my problem. I'm the bass player and I've spent years honing MY craft and MY sound. And good sound guy will be able to dial us back in by the third bar of every song." Yep. You've obviously spent exactly zero minutes mixing a band. Good luck with that. )

I'll see myself out.

Lol, I do see your point man, not going to argue that. Here's a thought though. Not every sound guy is you (meant in the complimentary way). I play a lot of really big, really great shows where the sound guy is constantly paying attention during the set and tweaking as needed. In between those shows, I get the sound guy that shows up a half hour after sound check drunk and barely has time to line check us, nevermind dial in actual good tone.

That being said, I have really nice equipment already and more EQ options than I could possibly think to utilize already. If I can get a good sound on stage, I'm confident that I can get a good sound to the crowd because honestly, I could just unplug from the house if needed and I'd have all the sound and headroom with just my rig I'd ever want. But tap into your bass playing side for a bit. You know there's a difference between an active bass with Bart pups and OBP-3 preamp and a passive fender P bass, and you know there are certain applications for each

I'm not asking for entire EQ overhauls by song. I'm talking about figuring out a way to come up with 2 general presets (3 if I wanted to include the MG bass as well, but I think for all intents and purposes, I'd probably only bring 2 to a show) and have them be balanced in volume no matter which room I play and require minimal tap dancing to activate them. I'm playing around with turning off my amps EQ and using my MXR EQ now, but I was more wondering if people had experience with this already, if there are solutions that maybe I'm not thinking of, and even things like having both basses plugged in for the show with an A/B switch so I don't have to fumble with cables and whatnot. STREAMLINED.

Don't need prestine tone per se, but I do want to accentuate the character of each bass in a live setting, because there is real world application for this. Plus, maybe people don't care about the difference between your tone because you haven't given them the real deal yet . Just want to sound my best and do my band/my own original music justice.

 

[Muthertucker]

If you are a tone snob, this might not work for you. I like multi-effect units, mostly because I can have presets. I'm getting too old to stoop down and change pedal settings. My current unit is a Zoom B3n. You could set up multiples of a specific effect, each optimized for a specific bass. I sometimes play with flat strings and sometimes rounds. I hate swapping basses mid-set, so some of my presets are duplicated with specific tweaks for flats or rounds.

Yeah digital is honestly becoming better as time goes on. Eventually I may end up going that route, but I've just been loving my tube head and natural sound currently so it would be a hard sell. Thanks for the info though, and regardless there is the concept of the pedalboard switcher thing. Don't remember what it's called but I could build my own presets out of my own pedalboard and click through them with 1 button instead of the dancing around. These are things to ponder...

 

[4Mal]

Switching device and programmable eq. As with Two Fingers above I am also sound guy and bass player. My belief is that in each band there is a fairly narrow tone ‘window’ where the bass sits well in the mix. As sound guy I want to hear bass guitar and kick and other low end signal distinctly. Separation in other words. A radical change in the bass guitar eq is probably not going to mesh with kick anymore. That isn’t really going to help.

Radical departures from the window are never well received out at FOH.

Probably should have also mentioned the Rafial Bassbone that has been a long time fav of mine. I generally cable up my Marco passive P and an active Lull or a Fernandes 5. Very different gains, the BB makes it easy.

 

[BAG]

- Mesa Amp Footswitch (Mute, Solo (boost), Voice (EQ preset on/off), EQ (amp's 9-band EQ on/off), and EFX on/off)

- MXR 10 band EQ

If you're only using two basses use the amps EQ to dial in the sound you want from one of the basses.
Switch basses and use the MXR EQ to dial in the sound you want for the other bass using the gain to balance the volume. If needed you could turn off the amps EQ when switching on the MXR EQ. This should get you close enough for any live gig.

 

[Stumbo]

Two eqs and an A/B switch.

Leave the amp flat.

 

[ClusterFlux]

I'm talking about figuring out a way to come up with 2 general presets (3 if I wanted to include the MG bass as well, but I think for all intents and purposes, I'd probably only bring 2 to a show) and have them be balanced in volume no matter which room I play and require minimal tap dancing to activate them.

I gotta go with the sound guy and the KISS principle. Tiny nuances of tone will be lost in the mix and the room acoustics, and the audience won't care anyway. I'd focus on getting one or two good basic tones, use the EQ to adjust to the room, and make it easy for the sound guy.

I prefer to only switch instruments if there is a noticeable difference between them (fretted and fretless; 4- and 5-string) or for show (Fender/Hofner) or as a backup.

At any rate, you might want to get one of these

You can keep both basses plugged into the unit, turn down the volume on the bass when it's not in use, and use the input levels to set the instruments to a consistent output volume.

 

[s0c9]

I'm not asking for entire EQ overhauls by song. I'm talking about figuring out a way to come up with 2 general presets (3 if I wanted to include the MG bass as well, but I think for all intents and purposes, I'd probably only bring 2 to a show) and have them be balanced in volume no matter which room I play and require minimal tap dancing to activate them. I'm playing around with turning off my amps EQ and using my MXR EQ now, but I was more wondering if people had experience with this already, if there are solutions that maybe I'm not thinking of, and even things like having both basses plugged in for the show with an A/B switch so I don't have to fumble with cables and whatnot. STREAMLINED.

As another sound guy chiming in.. by changing basses (as you alluded to above) and clarifying in an earlier post about the difference - "You know there's a difference between an active bass with Bart pups and OBP-3 preamp and a passive fender P bass, and you know there are certain applications for each" - you ARE essentially doing an "entire EQ overhaul by song". As was mentioned, there's a narrow window for bass in the average PA system, narrower still with kick and that guy on keys playing the lower register or that 7-string gee-tar over there. Swapping from an OBP3 to a passive P-bass (depending on tone settings) would likely send the FOH guy scrambling, even if they are actively mixing, to try to fit you back into the mix - where you were - with the new "tone".

Don't need prestine tone per se, but I do want to accentuate the character of each bass in a live setting, because there is real world application for this. Plus, maybe people don't care about the difference between your tone because you haven't given them the real deal yet . Just want to sound my best and do my band/my own original music justice.

Totally understand and agree. If you have your own sound guy while touring, then you can do that. Even with good local sound guys, swapping over bass on every song isn't going to go over well with FOH.
Just my opine.

 

[Omega Monkey]

Seems like you need a digital solution, maybe Line 6.

Ewww, gross.

Anyway, I'm also a sound guy, and I pretty much concur with some of the responses above. Not out of laziness, but more out of, 9 times out of 10, the difference will not be that noticeable in the house. Especially since 2 of your basses seem like they're probably pretty similar.

So you have to balance trying to get a bunch of different tones with the reality of how much difference you can make in a live band mix, without throwing off the whole mix.

For me, when I'm playing, my tone range is kind of in the fairly neutral but with some mid scoop, either clean or with a moderate amount of OD (1.5 sounds), basically the same but with the tone rolled off for a thumpier vintage sound, and then bridge pickup finger style. I'm not constantly tweaking EQ all night, and I would basically play one bass unless I needed a fretless for something. Those handful of utilitarian tones I use, I keep sort of in the same palette, but just pull out different aspects. This may change the place in the mix relatively speaking, BUT ideally the other band members are changing as well in concert into something that works as a whole. And I'm making these changes based on actual reasons of "this is more of a 90s rock thing, so I'm going for the Mike Starr/Krist Noveselic/Paul D'Amour kind of tone" or "this more of a Jaco thing, so it's bridge pickup with lots of mids and some light chorus", or "this is more Bootsy-esque, so it will be the mid scooped tone with octaver and Q Tron". Not just "well, I have all these basses, so I want to keep switching". The overall EQ stays the same and maybe 1 band will change, or I'll kick in or out a voicing/contour switch.

So you have to figure out if you have musical reasons for changing or just doing it for ego. If it's for musical reasons, to some extent it should work inherently (maybe with some level matching). I would say if you've sorted that out and still have issues, perhaps a 1 or 2 band parametric EQ, used on one or the other of the basses might work. And then back your main (ie amp) EQ off a bit in the areas that don't work well with that bass. In other words you want to bring the 2 closer together, without removing the character difference that is the whole point. OR, just use the extra EQ to achieve that character difference. Honestly, my Carvin 6 string into my Trace or Genz Benz hybrids can do more P style, more J style, bright modern jazz/fusion stuff, etc... depending on how I set the amp EQ, voicings, gain, pickup blend, etc...

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

I use passive basses j, p and mm style. Although they are all passive, they all have different outputs. On my board, the first pre (mxr bass pre) allows me to match the volume differences of different basses and do basic tone shaping. This way, I do not change a single setting on any other pedal. I don't really change my amp settings either once I adjust it, it stays the same until the end of the show.

The most importing thing is that you make sure your pedals are set right, and you don't loose volume or the required frequencies when you engage a pedal. As my last DI I prefer the Sansamp still which is what goes to the PA. After critical listening and adjusting the pedals, I know what exactly goes to the PA.

 

[thanos k]

I am slowly turning into a tone snob, and for someone that tries to play a variety of styles in a single show, I have some questions from experienced gigging musicians on how they deal with keeping a nice mix when switching basses and streamlining going back and forth without having to dance on pedals or completely re-EQ your amp.

during summertime i gig every day for 5 months, i'm not the most experienced for sure, but this is my approach:

my gig is a classic rock trio bass, guitar, drums & vocals

we are a small combo and i mix the sound (we have our own p.a system)

as for the bass sound after a lot of try and error i came to the conclusion that my bass amp always sounds different from my p.a bass sound. this is very distracting and you may think that you have a nice sound while in reallity what people listen from the p.a ( i mean the bass sound mixed with the rest band) is not what i was going for... most of the times it was too bassy or not loud enough or even worse too loud in the mix.

i stopped using a bass amp and always tried to mix my bass and eq it with the band from the p.a speakers (that is what the audience listens to)

i own many basses and wanted, as you said, to showcase the sound of each bass in the mix ( i want my jazz bass to sound like a jazz bass and my pbass as a pbass and not a generic bass sound where you cannot really tell what bass a bass player is using). i use only one bass at a gig cause i don't want to mess up the general mix as many others said earlier here. i do use some overdrive and also palm mute and i do pick style and fingerstyle - whatever the cover song needs, so there's a variety of sounds...

i always cut some bass from the board and boost some high mids and treble. that helps me showcase the sound of each bass clearer, with more character and clarity and i compansate the loss of some bottom with higher volume. this also leaves a lot of room for the bass drum and makes the drummer happy. also my pickups sound as they should that way. you can really tell when i use the neck pickup or the bridge or both which for me is very important. i used to be afraid to roll off some bass, but the bottom is always there...

i roll off bottom end because i don't want a boomy sound on stage (our speakers usually are on stage with us on stands) , everything is cleaner, quiet and i use an in ear to hear my playing

i love playing my amplifiers, but then you must relly mostly on your amp for volume and tone and much less on the p.a if you want your audience to hear your desired bass tone. this can cause frictions with your bandmates because then you must play your amp really loud to fill the room...

 

[Muthertucker]

Ewww, gross.

Anyway, I'm also a sound guy, and I pretty much concur with some of the responses above. Not out of laziness, but more out of, 9 times out of 10, the difference will not be that noticeable in the house. Especially since 2 of your basses seem like they're probably pretty similar.

So you have to balance trying to get a bunch of different tones with the reality of how much difference you can make in a live band mix, without throwing off the whole mix.

For me, when I'm playing, my tone range is kind of in the fairly neutral but with some mid scoop, either clean or with a moderate amount of OD (1.5 sounds), basically the same but with the tone rolled off for a thumpier vintage sound, and then bridge pickup finger style. I'm not constantly tweaking EQ all night, and I would basically play one bass unless I needed a fretless for something. Those handful of utilitarian tones I use, I keep sort of in the same palette, but just pull out different aspects. This may change the place in the mix relatively speaking, BUT ideally the other band members are changing as well in concert into something that works as a whole. And I'm making these changes based on actual reasons of "this is more of a 90s rock thing, so I'm going for the Mike Starr/Krist Noveselic/Paul D'Amour kind of tone" or "this more of a Jaco thing, so it's bridge pickup with lots of mids and some light chorus", or "this is more Bootsy-esque, so it will be the mid scooped tone with octaver and Q Tron". Not just "well, I have all these basses, so I want to keep switching". The overall EQ stays the same and maybe 1 band will change, or I'll kick in or out a voicing/contour switch.

So you have to figure out if you have musical reasons for changing or just doing it for ego. If it's for musical reasons, to some extent it should work inherently (maybe with some level matching). I would say if you've sorted that out and still have issues, perhaps a 1 or 2 band parametric EQ, used on one or the other of the basses might work. And then back your main (ie amp) EQ off a bit in the areas that don't work well with that bass. In other words you want to bring the 2 closer together, without removing the character difference that is the whole point. OR, just use the extra EQ to achieve that character difference. Honestly, my Carvin 6 string into my Trace or Genz Benz hybrids can do more P style, more J style, bright modern jazz/fusion stuff, etc... depending on how I set the amp EQ, voicings, gain, pickup blend, etc...

As much as I like a good flex, I believe in both my posts there should be no inkling of this being an ego thing. Lol, if we wanted to break out the tones I'd want to use and their valid applications, they would be this:

- Active bass: 5 string, Roundwound strings, Bridge pup, Mid scoop, tone 80%, treble and bass boosted
- Active bass: 5 string, Roundwound strings, Neck pup, tone 50%, treble 20%, bass and mid boosted
- Passive Bass: 4 string, Flatwound strings, bridge pup, tone 70-80%
- Passive Bass: 4 string, Flatwound strings, neck pup, tone 70-80%

That covers the general needs. I get my more contemporary R&B/hip hop/rock tones with the active bass's 2 settings and I get my vintage soul/Motown/funk tones out of my Fender's 2 settings (to put it simply). I can hear a big difference out of my rig when switching and at rehearsals too, my bandmates can tell which bass sounds better for the situation (and even encourage me to switch)

I get there's a FOH concern, but people have switched basses live for years and I know there's a reasoning and a solution out there. Even with things like the difference in how notes sustain between the 2 instruments is huge, nvm the neck pickup tone coming from my fender vs a bart. Frankly, even if the sound guy made it so it was difficult to tell the difference in the front, it would make me happy on stage hearing the songs the way they're supposed to sound, because it sure makes a hell of a difference coming directly out of my rig.

I really like the Morely ABY switcher idea. Considering my MXR EQ has it's own volume/gain sliders, I can dial those in to match the output of my other guitar through my amp's EQ. I think we have something to work with there.

Thanks for all the info!

 

[InhumanResource]

This won't be popular, but here goes.

I'm a sound guy too. And what you're proposing is a sound guy's worst nightmare. We already have to juggle guitarists and keyboard players coming up with different tones for every song.

Also, I play all passive basses. I dime my tone knob and sometimes stwitch pickups (after I dial in my tone to the room). AMD that's it. I play in all kinds of bands (I do a lot of fill-in gigs). I play all kinds of music. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, in your audience cares if you sound exactly like Jamerson on "My Girl" and just like Ross Valory on "Don't Stop Believing". Nobody.

My suggestion? Find a great tone for your your BAND, NOT EVERY SINGLE SONG. Sure, stomp your pedals as needed (I do). Boist here and switch to your bridge pickup there. But your core sound shouldn't be completely different for every song. It's not worth the hassle and your sound guy will eventually give up and quit trying to find you. (Ask me how I know.) I'm not going to do 50 sound checks every night.

Try to put yourself in the sound guy's shoes. How, exactly, is he/she supposed to literally remix the band every single song? What's soundcheck for if you're all going to sound completely different every song?

(I know the argument so don't bother. "Screw him. That's not my problem. I'm the bass player and I've spent years honing MY craft and MY sound. And good sound guy will be able to dial us back in by the third bar of every song." Yep. You've obviously spent exactly zero minutes mixing a band. Good luck with that. )

I'll see myself out.

I wish more guitarists would do this. Whenever I hear one talking about "that's a strat song" or see one scurry to fiddle with his amp between tunes I start to sweat.

 

[Rooster009]

I don’t see a problem in any changes as long as the artist has taken the time to adjust everything to unity gain, and by that I don’t mean just doing it by ear. Get your gear to a mixer during your bands practice or rehearsal and use the Pre Listen Fader to help adjust your pedal levels. That right there can make a huge difference in the quality of the sound in a show. As far as using different guitars, a good sound man will notice that you’re switching and readjust your gain at the board each time you switch.

 

[Muthertucker]

I don’t see a problem in any changes as long as the artist has taken the time to adjust everything to unity gain, and by that I don’t mean just doing it by ear. Get your gear to a mixer during your bands practice or rehearsal and use the Pre Listen Fader to help adjust your pedal levels. That right there can make a huge difference in the quality of the sound in a show. As far as using different guitars, a good sound man will notice that you’re switching and readjust your gain at the board each time you switch.

...What's a pre-listen fader? I see what you mean about that though, with all of the different pieces I have going on at once, there's a lot of opportunity to make my output levels screwy. I have a super small practice mixer so if pre-listen is something that would be included on any mixer than I'll try that out today before I even get any gear.

I do think I'm going with the Morely option which will help, but though my input levels may be fine on that piece of gear, I do need to go through all my pedal configurations and make sure I'll never get the opportunity to destroy my amp/people's faces.

 

[Rooster009]

...What's a pre-listen fader? I see what you mean about that though, with all of the different pieces I have going on at once, there's a lot of opportunity to make my output levels screwy. I have a super small practice mixer so if pre-listen is something that would be included on any mixer than I'll try that out today before I even get any gear.

I do think I'm going with the Morely option which will help, but though my input levels may be fine on that piece of gear, I do need to go through all my pedal configurations and make sure I'll never get the opportunity to destroy my amp/people's faces.

On some mixers it will be a button labeled as PLF and on some it will be labeled as SOLO and it will be labeled so on each channel of the mixer and sometimes There is also a button labeled on the master fader as well. If there is one on the master fader make sure it is set to PLF/SOLO as well as the button on the channel that you are using. Then use your ears and also the led meters to set your levels to unity gain. I do this with my own equipment by plugging my bass directly into the board and setting my gain for that channel to zero DB on the led meter by plucking the open E string of the bass, then I add my pedal board to the mix and adjust the output of each pedal to match the output of my bass at zero DB on the led meter using the same open E string. It gets all of your levels closer to actual unity gain. Take note that if you have two or more pedals that you use together at the same time that your levels may increase a bit more and you should adjust accordingly. Overall it really helps the sound man and the whole experience IMO/IME