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MLB 2014

#81
I think he may have, but he was betting on the Reds, if I remember right. If anything, that would make him work harder at winning. There was absolutely no evidence he ever threw any games to win bets. I think Shoeless Joe Jackson should be pardoned and let into the Hall. If Ty Cobb, one of the biggest jerks to ever live, is in the hall, then Shoeless Joe should be. Likewise, Pete Rose did his time in purgatory and should be let in. Eventually, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa and the rest should be let in. All with the appropriate asterisk. A-Rod is one of the most regrettable examples of human character, but he should also be let in posthumously. Let him twist in the wind for the rest of his life. Maybe that's what should happen to all of those guys. They did what they did, but they were also spectacular baseball players. It's just a game.

The guy who should be a first ballot inductee is Ken Griffey, Jr. He did everything he did on talent and practice. If he had juiced, his career with the Reds would have been better and he probably would have 800 or more home runs. The Kingdome in Seattle wore out his body. It may have inflated his home run total, but he hit them so far that I doubt it.
 
#83
Gaolee said:
I think he may have, but he was betting on the Reds, if I remember right. If anything, that would make him work harder at winning. There was absolutely no evidence he ever threw any games to win bets. I think Shoeless Joe Jackson should be pardoned and let into the Hall. If Ty Cobb, one of the biggest jerks to ever live, is in the hall, then Shoeless Joe should be. Likewise, Pete Rose did his time in purgatory and should be let in. Eventually, Bonds, McGuire, Sosa and the rest should be let in. All with the appropriate asterisk. A-Rod is one of the most regrettable examples of human character, but he should also be let in posthumously. Let him twist in the wind for the rest of his life. Maybe that's what should happen to all of those guys. They did what they did, but they were also spectacular baseball players. It's just a game.
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Yes, and no.

I agree, Rose should be in the hall. No doubt.

But all those guys? Not so sure. Does Bonds break Maris's record without steroids? To give away a record like that based on cheating absolutely affects the integrity of the game. Same for other records. How about career longevity?The whole mystery, allure and landscape of records changes.

Guys go from mediocre to having career years from steroids, in both pitching and hitting, and those same guys get huge contracts at the expense of others playing by the rules. And the guys playing by the rules? The batting averages go down by playing against pitchers using roids for an advantage. The pitchers playing by the rules see their ERA's go up, and there is no nice contracts for them like their roid using counterparts.

I'll make no secret about it - I hate those guys.

BTW, remind me one day to show you my baseball autograph collection.
 
#84
tastybasslines said:
Yes, and no.

I agree, Rose should be in the hall. No doubt.

But all those guys? Not so sure. Does Bonds break Maris's record without steroids? To give away a record like that based on cheating absolutely affects the integrity of the game. Same for other records. How about career longevity?The whole mystery, allure and landscape of records changes.

Guys go from mediocre to having career years from steroids, in both pitching and hitting, and those same guys get huge contracts at the expense of others playing by the rules. And the guys playing by the rules? The batting averages go down by playing against pitchers using roids for an advantage. The pitchers playing by the rules see their ERA's go up, and there is no nice contracts for them like their roid using counterparts.

I'll make no secret about it - I hate those guys.

BTW, remind me one day to show you my baseball autograph collection.
Click to expand...

Do you have a Gaylord Perry autograph? How about Ty Cobb or John McGraw? Joe Niekro or Albert Belle? All cheaters.

Invalid Link Removed
 
#85
tastybasslines said:
Yes, and no.



I agree, Rose should be in the hall. No doubt.



But all those guys? Not so sure. Does Bonds break Maris's record without steroids? To give away a record like that based on cheating absolutely affects the integrity of the game. Same for other records. How about career longevity?The whole mystery, allure and landscape of records changes.



Guys go from mediocre to having career years from steroids, in both pitching and hitting, and those same guys get huge contracts at the expense of others playing by the rules. And the guys playing by the rules? The batting averages go down by playing against pitchers using roids for an advantage. The pitchers playing by the rules see their ERA's go up, and there is no nice contracts for them like their roid using counterparts.



I'll make no secret about it - I hate those guys.



BTW, remind me one day to show you my baseball autograph collection.
Click to expand...


Bonds' numbers from Pittsburgh get him into the Hall, IMO. His WAR from Pittsburgh is higher than Griffy's is for his career.

lowsound
 
#86
slobake said:
Do you have a Gaylord Perry autograph? How about Ty Cobb or John McGraw? Joe Niekro or Albert Belle? All cheaters.

Invalid Link Removed
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No, I don't. I still believe steroids are a huge step above doctoring a ball.

iamlowsound said:
Bonds' numbers from Pittsburgh get him into the Hall, IMO. His WAR from Pittsburgh is higher than Griffy's is for his career.

lowsound
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This is a very good argument and I'll agree.

I feel that being in the Hall of Fame should be reserved to leaders, players who had talent and a good work ethic. On the numbers alone, you are right. I think there should be a moral component also. Wouldn't it seem wierd to visit the actual HOF in Cooperstown, see a statute of Bonds with an asterisk next to it? What would you tell your young son?

Dad: "Son, Bonds hit the most home runs of anybody."

Son: "Why is there an asterisk next to his name then?

Dad: "Well, during part of his career, he cheated to do it".
 
#87
They have a little statue of those guys when they go into the Hall. Maybe, for people like Bonds, the statue should just be an asterisk. I'm ambivalent about McGuire and Sosa. At the time they were juicing, it wasn't specifically prohibited. So, they cheated, but was it cheating? I don't have an answer and I don't fully understand the divide between morals and breaking rules in this case. It's an odd one.
 
#88
I guess for me, the federal government isn't going to come knocking on Niekro's door for spitting on a baseball like they did for the steroid crew. That's what separates those steroid users from other 'cheaters' in the game.

Sure, there was no MLB rule in place saying 'do not inject yourself with human growth hormones', but it is still illegal.

-Mike
 
#89
We know A-Rod used human growth hormones, but I thought McGuire and Sosa used something a whole lot lower tech that wasn't an illegal drug. It was some kind of steroid, but that's about all I know. My knowledge of sterioids is limited to knowing that doctors might give you a cortizone shot for some things. I think that's a steroid, but I don't know.
 
#90
MJ5150 said:
I guess for me, the federal government isn't going to come knocking on Niekro's door for spitting on a baseball like they did for the steroid crew. That's what separates those steroid users from other 'cheaters' in the game.

Sure, there was no MLB rule in place saying 'do not inject yourself with human growth hormones', but it is still illegal.

-Mike
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Are some types of cheating okay and other types of cheating are not? All of the people I listed did things hat affected the outcome of ballgames and gave them an illegal advantage.
 
#91
slobake said:
Are some types of cheating okay and other types of cheating are not? All of the people I listed did things hat affected the outcome of ballgames and gave them an illegal advantage.
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My stance is like Mike's.

There has to be some line some where. Should a player be banned for cheating because he purposely ran outside of the bathpaths? (or a similar example )? After all, it IS against the rules...

They guys taking steroids KNEW that they would gain an almost permanent physical advantage by taking them, outside the context of playing in a game, like Neikro did throwing spitters.
 
#94
tastybasslines said:
My stance is like Mike's.

There has to be some line some where. Should a player be banned for cheating because he purposely ran outside of the bathpaths? (or a similar example )? After all, it IS against the rules...

They guys taking steroids KNEW that they would gain an almost permanent physical advantage by taking them, outside the context of playing in a game, like Neikro did throwing spitters.
Click to expand...

I am not really sure about that. Taking PED's of any type is not a a guarentee to make someone a better ballplayer. Also during the steriod era use of PED's was so prevalent that it may have really been a way to even the field instead of cheating. There were so many players taking PED's at that time, I believe way have only scratched the surface of that. It also looks like MLB ignored it becaues they believed it sold more tickets.
Barry Bonds was a jerk and he ticked off a lot of people with his arrogant attitude. That is why some journalists went after him more than others. I can't say that I blame them, Barry bought it on himself.
Throwing spitters and doctoring the ball has a more quatifieable affect on the outcome of games.
It is a minor point but it was Gaylord Perry that threw spitters, Niekro doctored the ball with a nail file.
 
#96
slobake said:
Are some types of cheating okay and other types of cheating are not? All of the people I listed did things hat affected the outcome of ballgames and gave them an illegal advantage.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Cheating to gain a competitive advantage in game play is one thing. Pumping up your body with chemicals so you can do things a normal human body can not is a different type of cheating in my opinion. It's just how I have reasoned it out in my heart. Both sides can be argued convincingly.

-Mike
 
#98
MJ5150 said:
Good catch on the Niekro/Perry slobake.

-Mike
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Thanks Mike. I hope I don't come off on this subject as too arguementative. There seems to be an upswing of that around here lately.
I am enjoying this discussion and think it is interesting. I welcome other thoughts.
Maybe I should start a new thread instead of continuing to hijack this one.
 
#99
Me too buddy. I just try to carefully make my comments since I know there are people who feel opposite that I do on the subject. I'm trying not to give off this attitude that my opinion is the right one, just how I have settled matters in my heart with the baseball gods.

-Mike
 

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