Modal Interchange?

[dpbass66]

I don't completely have a grasp on non diatonic subdominant chords. I'll have to do more reading about it. I thought most subdominant chords were a fifth above a target chord. For instance, we did a version of "I Heard the Bells On Christmas Day" for church. In the key of Bb, everything is pretty diatonic except the last chord coming out of each verse is D7/A with an Gm as the next chord. In my mind, the D should be a 3 chord and minor. I asked the keyboard player (music teacher) and he said that functioned as a Subdominant.

I believe the concept of modal interchange implies directly borrowing the same degree chord from another mode of the initial scale/key. So modal interchange while in A Major might be using Cm7, instead of C#m7. I am not sure how that works when you shift the tonic, as in your example. If G#m7b5 is the 7th degree of A Major, perhaps using G Maj instead is modal interchange from the A natural minor?

 

[dpbass66]

I've never heard the term before, so I don't know the answer. A G chord in A major definitely implies a different mode; it's just such a common thing that I never gave it much thought.

I see you're a composer. Modal interchange is a concept in jazz pedagogy to give an academic framework for a common harmonic device used by jazz musicians while improvising.

 

[fretlessman71]

I think that borrowing from a Parallel Minor is the same thing as Modal Interchange. You are in Ionian(major) and you borrow a chord from the Aeolian(minor).

Yep, just a specific version of Modal Interchange. Kinda like how a square is a rectangle, but a rectangle isn't necessarily a square.

 

[fretlessman71]

I don’t know much about the Cure, but I wonder if they knew what they were doing in terms of theory?

Probably not to this degree; like most rock musicians, they probably tried something and they liked it, or they heard something and they wrote it. Like I don't need to know what the Maillard Reaction is to know that I like my grilled chicken to have some good char marks from the metal bars.

 

[fretlessman71]

“Modal interchange is using chords from a parallel key while retaining the same tonal center. Tonal center refers mainly to the root note of the 1 chord. Parallel key and mode are synonymous terms which refer to scales containing different notes but sharing the same root note.

The important difference between modulation and modal interchange is a modulation changes the tonal center, while modal interchange does not.”

Great definition. Clear as it gets!

 

[E Joe]

This video was real good and pretty short I thought.


it does feature a guitarist though…

 

[kirkdickinson]

Longer explanation from Rick Beato

 

[E Joe]

Longer explanation from Rick Beato

This one features a guitarist too!

 

[Les Fret]

This one features a guitarist too!

We also play a bass GUITAR!
So be kind to our 6 string friends

 

[HolmeBass]

I see this as a borrowed chord from the Parallel Minor. Check this out:

Amaj, Bmin, C#min, Dmaj, Emaj, F#min, G#dim, right? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

"Parallel Minor" is an idea that any major chord progression can "borrow" chords from a minor key with the same root. So:

6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5: Amin, Bdim, Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj.

I know, it seems convoluted and weird.

But insert any of those chords from the parallel minor into the Cure song and see how natural it sounds.

It's very strange! But this explains chord progressions like Sweet Home Alabama, which also uses a chord from Parallel Minor: Dmaj, Cmaj, Gmaj is I-bVII-IV in D, not V-IV-I in G. There's something about recognizing the "home root note" that allows us to readily accept these chords that are clearly outside the key.

If you doubt this, listen to some classical music and see how often the key of a song changes from major to minor and back again with the same root note.

To me the parallel minor is the same as a parallel mode - either way it is a borrowed chord.

 

[fretlessman71]

To me the parallel minor is the same as a parallel mode - either way it is a borrowed chord.

No argument here.

 

[logdrum]

This one features a guitarist too!

He plays bass and is decent, He can lay down bass tracks that fit the song. His only fault as per TB is he mainly uses a Jazz Bass.

 

[kirkdickinson]

Does Adam Neely count as a real bass player?

 

[E Joe]

We also play a bass GUITAR!
So be kind to our 6 string friends

Only some lighthearted ribbing intended!

I actually am a fan of guitar! It’s the perfect background noise for egregious slap bass soloing.

 

[kirkdickinson]

Here is another explanation from a jazz guy that I think plays piano.

 

[kirkdickinson]

Thanks for the nice discussion folks.

 

[fretlessman71]

We also play a bass GUITAR!
So be kind to our 6 string friends

Naaaaah....

 

[Engle]

Probably not to this degree; like most rock musicians, they probably tried something and they liked it, or they heard something and they wrote it. Like I don't need to know what the Maillard Reaction is to know that I like my grilled chicken to have some good char marks from the metal bars.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

A teacher years ago told me it doesn't matter if you break all the rules if it sounds good. "If it sounds good, it is good."

I agree with your statement.
I remember many "decades" ago, I was fresh from a 4-year Music School - Classical Harmony, and immediately encountered "strange" chord progressions in pop/rock music going beyond the Classical Harmony "framework."
Yes, it sounded good, and it was good, but I needed to get some theory explanation about it.
That term, "Modal interchange" is like some addendum to the "cemented" Classic Harmony.
Usually, a pop/rock musician does not care about any deep knowledge of HARMONY - If it sounds good, it's good.
It's later, when other musicians start asking questions like, "How can I explain that "harmonic twist" from the Harmony theory point of view, without "messing up" the fundamentals of "frozen" Classic Harmony.

 

[kirkdickinson]

I agree with your statement.
I remember many "decades" ago, I was fresh from a 4-year Music School - Classical Harmony, and immediately encountered "strange" chord progressions in pop/rock music going beyond the Classical Harmony "framework."

Yes, it sounded good, and it was good, but I needed to get some theory explanation about it.
That term, "Modal interchange" is like some addendum to the "cemented" Classic Harmony.
Usually, a pop/rock musician does not care about any deep knowledge of HARMONY - If it sounds good, it's good.
It's later, when other musicians start asking questions like, "How can I explain that "harmonic twist" from the Harmony theory point of view, without "messing up" the fundamentals of "frozen" Classic Harmony.

Exactly. I drilled the modes and arpeggios so much and learned to play and transpose from Nashville numbers.

in my mind, the modes are numbered the same as the Nashville system, and every number has an arpeggio that fits over it.

Then, when I started seeing things that were outside of the framework in my mind, it really threw me for a loop. I mostly play praise and worship music at church, and, that stuff is pretty much plain Jane vanilla diatonic. But when we get into Christmas music or hymns, they depart from the diatonic quite a bit. I struggled with that, and the worst was transposing in my mind. I still struggle with transposing when a chord doesn’t fit the mold.

Now, when I see something that doesn’t fit, the diatonic, I revert to a chord tone method for the aberrations.