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Modal Interchange?

#41
kirkdickinson said:
Now, when I see something that doesn’t fit, the diatonic, I revert to a chord tone method for the aberrations.
Click to expand...

Just a side note from "music theory specialists" about those borrowed chords.
A "borrowed chord" does not alter the function of the chord it’s replacing, but simply changes the quality.

Let's say, we have a progression C major - F major/F minor - G major(7) - C major.
The F minor chord is a borrowed chord and is also a subdominant chord like F major.
 
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#42
Whousedtoplay said:
Just a side note from "music theory specialists" about those borrowed chords.
A "borrowed chord" does not alter the function of the chord it’s replacing, but simply changes the quality.

Let's say, we have a progression C major - F major/F minor - G major(7) - C major.
The F minor chord is a borrowed chord and is also a subdominant chord like F major.
Click to expand...

Would the A7 and Dmaj7 fit the definition of "borrowed" in the key of C major if you played the following?

Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7
 
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#43
g-dude said:
Would the A7 and Dmaj7 fit the definition of "borrowed" in the key of C major if you played the following?

Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7
Click to expand...

My (only) answer for the A7 chord is NO.
A borrowed chord is different from the Secondary Dominants (think -tonicization).

During tonicization, you are temporarily changing the "tonic chord."
A7 as a secondary dominant temporarily makes Dmaj7 as the "tonic chord," which destroys the modal interchange foundation - "retaining the same tonal center. Tonal center refers mainly to the root note of the 1 chord" as our TB member Smooth_bass88 has mentioned.

Now, the Dmaj7 in the key of C major is a "borrowed chord."
If it's just D major chord - a Triad, then, it's borrowed from C Lydian, but...
If it's D maj7 with that C#, then, it's not(!) borrowed from C Lydian.
What are our other choices.

"Smart Music Theorists" have found the solution for some "serious" cases of Modal Interchange.
"Although the most commonly used borrowed chords originate from the major and/or minor parallel modes, including the respective harmonic and melodic minor as well as symmetrical scales sharing the same root."

One of the symmetrical scales, "based on root of the scale – in C" is
The Chromatic Scale as

C – G – D – A – E – B – F# – C# – G# – D# – A# – E# (F enharmonic) and C.

We have the needed notes of D - F# - A - C# for the borrowed chord of Dmaj7.

Symmetric Scales


P.S. In the "picky world of Music Theorists" at TalkBass, you don't "borrow" from Harmonic Minor or Melodic Minor for your Natural Minor.
 
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#44
Whousedtoplay said:
My (only) answer for the A7 chord is NO.
A borrowed chord is different from the Secondary Dominants (think -tonicization).

During tonicization, you are temporarily changing the "tonic chord."
A7 as a secondary dominant temporarily makes Dmaj7 as the "tonic chord," which destroys the modal interchange foundation - "retaining the same tonal center. Tonal center refers mainly to the root note of the 1 chord" as our TB member Smooth_bass88 has mentioned.

Now, the Dmaj7 in the key of C major is a "borrowed chord."
If it's just D major chord - a Triad, then, it's borrowed from C Lydian, but...
If it's D maj7 with that C#, then, it's not(!) borrowed from C Lydian.
What are our other choices.

"Smart Music Theorists" have found the solution for some "serious" cases of Modal Interchange.
"Although the most commonly used borrowed chords originate from the major and/or minor parallel modes, including the respective harmonic and melodic minor as well as symmetrical scales sharing the same root."

One of the symmetrical scales, "based on root of the scale – in C" is
The Chromatic Scale as

C – G – D – A – E – B – F# – C# – G# – D# – A# – E# (F enharmonic) and C.

We have the needed notes of D - F# - A - C# for the borrowed chord of Dmaj7.

Symmetric Scales


P.S. In the "picky world of Music Theorists" at TalkBass, you don't "borrow" from Harmonic Minor or Melodic Minor for your Natural Minor.
Click to expand...


Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

E-G-B-D A-C#-E-G D-F#-A-C# D-F-A-C

Between the A7 and the Dmaj7, besides the two note in common, the other two notes are moving a whole step. E-->D and G-->F#, then from Dmaj7 to Dm7, the two notes not in common are both moving a half step.

We don't know which song or what else is going on, could it just be a clever voice leading to the Dm7??
 
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#46
Whousedtoplay said:
My (only) answer for the A7 chord is NO.
A borrowed chord is different from the Secondary Dominants (think -tonicization).

During tonicization, you are temporarily changing the "tonic chord."
A7 as a secondary dominant temporarily makes Dmaj7 as the "tonic chord," which destroys the modal interchange foundation - "retaining the same tonal center. Tonal center refers mainly to the root note of the 1 chord" as our TB member Smooth_bass88 has mentioned.

Now, the Dmaj7 in the key of C major is a "borrowed chord."
If it's just D major chord - a Triad, then, it's borrowed from C Lydian, but...
If it's D maj7 with that C#, then, it's not(!) borrowed from C Lydian.
What are our other choices.

"Smart Music Theorists" have found the solution for some "serious" cases of Modal Interchange.
"Although the most commonly used borrowed chords originate from the major and/or minor parallel modes, including the respective harmonic and melodic minor as well as symmetrical scales sharing the same root."

One of the symmetrical scales, "based on root of the scale – in C" is
The Chromatic Scale as

C – G – D – A – E – B – F# – C# – G# – D# – A# – E# (F enharmonic) and C.

We have the needed notes of D - F# - A - C# for the borrowed chord of Dmaj7.

Symmetric Scales


P.S. In the "picky world of Music Theorists" at TalkBass, you don't "borrow" from Harmonic Minor or Melodic Minor for your Natural Minor.
Click to expand...

Okay, so then what about:

Em7 - Am7 - Dmaj7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

I don't even know if that would sound good, but I guess where I'm going with this is having a double set of 2-5-1s.
 
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#47
kirkdickinson said:
Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

E-G-B-D A-C#-E-G D-F#-A-C# D-F-A-C

Between the A7 and the Dmaj7, besides the two note in common, the other two notes are moving a whole step. E-->D and G-->F#, then from Dmaj7 to Dm7, the two notes not in common are both moving a half step.

We don't know which song or what else is going on, could it just be a clever voice leading to the Dm7??
Click to expand...

Thanks for calling my example clever! :D
 
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#49
g-dude said:
Okay, so then what about:

Em7 - Am7 - Dmaj7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7

I don't even know if that would sound good, but I guess where I'm going with this is having a double set of 2-5-1s.
Click to expand...

I think we have a few solid Theory Pros at TalkBass, they could explain it differently.
For my (amateur musician) knowledge, I would say that D major chord is borrowed.
The D maj7 chord is acting as "chromatic substitute" chord - I'm thinking about that C# -
"the substitution chord also supports the melody although it originates from a different harmonic field."

Let's say,

"For C major you could use any of the following chords.
C = C6; Cmaj7; Cmaj9; C6/9; Cmaj7/9"


It's all about the Jazz(Jazzy) chord substitutes.
Classic Harmony does not have a Major7 chord as Tonic.
 
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#51
Whousedtoplay said:
Just a side note from "music theory specialists" about those borrowed chords.
A "borrowed chord" does not alter the function of the chord it’s replacing, but simply changes the quality.
Click to expand...

Of course it does - that is one of the fundamental mechanisms of modulation. For example, in going from the key of C major to G major, the C chord might be simultaneously treated as Tonic of C and Subdominant of G, the target key. During that process, the II of C (Dm - Subdominant) is changed to D major as V (Dominant) of G. So the D chord, in changing from m to M, also changes function to facilitate the modulation.
 
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#53
Whousedtoplay said:
Steve, we are not talking about any MODULATION.
We are discussing Modal Interchange and borrowed chords only.
Modulation is a completely different "animal."
Click to expand...

The question as originally posed was "Is it Modal Interchange or Modulation?". As can be seen, the difference can come down to a single pitch changed by a single semi-tone. Not, perhaps, a different animal as much as a sub-genus of essentially the same thing - big dog vs small dog.
 
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#54
kirkdickinson said:
could it just be a clever voice leading to the Dm7??
Click to expand...

Here is a simple Teen Pop song - Feels Good To Be Bad - Robbie Nevil Extreme Music.



A simple chord chart.

Verse:
Eb min – Cb – Gb – Bb (7) (= from Eb Harmonic minor) x2
Pre-Chorus:
Cb – Db - D dim7 (= from Eb Harmonic minor) – Eb min/Db – Cb - Bb (7)

Chorus:
Eb min – Cb – Gb – Bb (7) (= from Eb Harmonic minor) x 2
Cb – Db - D dim7 (= from Eb Harmonic minor) – Eb min/Db – Cb - Bb (7) – - - Eb min.

After Chorus 2:

Ab min - – Eb min - Db
Ab min - – Bb - -
Eb min

We have D dim7, and that note D is our voice leading (leading tone) to Eb.

P.S. At TalkBass we don't "borrow" from Harmonic Minor - we just use it.:roflmao:
 

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