Modal Interchange?

[kirkdickinson]

Listening to “The Cure” “Just Like Heaven” last night while watching a movie of the same name. In the bridge section, at first thought I heard a key change, then I thought it was a modulation. Then I decided it was a Modal Interchange. The majority of the song is A - E - Bm - D A major, 1 - 5 - 2 - 4 Then in the Bridge, something changes. It goes back and forth between F#m and G. F#m is the 6 chord in A major, but G isn’t in A major. But G is the 7 major chord for A Mixolydian.

https://youtu.be/n3nPiBai66M

I had seen Youtubes about Modal Interchange before, but this is the first time I was just passively listening to music when jumped out at me and I thought... "That is a Modal Interchange."

 

[AGCurry]

Well, it's good that we have a term for that. How does it help us?

 

[kirkdickinson]

Well, it's good that we have a term for that. How does it help us?

I posted because I wanted confirmation about whether what I was hearing was actually Modal Interchange.

Why do we have a term for that? I guess the same reason we have a term for major and minor. It is to allow us to communicate a musical idea in words.

 

[Bob_Ross]

G isn’t in A major. But G is the 7 major chord for A Mixolydian.

I can't comment on whether this offers any insight into the bridge of "Just Like Heaven" but fwiw a G major chord (or a Gmaj7 chord) in the key of A major functions as a subdominant; bVIImaj7, though not literally diatonic [sic] to the key, is functionally similar to II-7 or IVmaj7. Allegedly its derivation comes from the diatonic VII-7b5 (which itself functions as a dominant chord) albeit with its root note (only) lowered by one half step.

Whether any of that qualifies it as "modal interchange" (or a "borrowed chord" etc.) I think depends how/where you learned your music theory; there doesn't appear to be a strict consensus on the terminology.

 

[AGCurry]

I've never heard the term before, so I don't know the answer. A G chord in A major definitely implies a different mode; it's just such a common thing that I never gave it much thought.

 

[kirkdickinson]

I can't comment on whether this offers any insight into the bridge of "Just Like Heaven" but fwiw a G major chord (or a Gmaj7 chord) in the key of A major functions as a subdominant; bVIImaj7, though not literally diatonic [sic] to the key, is functionally similar to II-7 or IVmaj7. Allegedly its derivation comes from the diatonic VII-7b5 (which itself functions as a dominant chord) albeit with its root note (only) lowered by one half step.

Whether any of that qualifies it as "modal interchange" (or a "borrowed chord" etc.) I think depends how/where you learned your music theory; there doesn't appear to be a strict consensus on the terminology.

I don't completely have a grasp on non diatonic subdominant chords. I'll have to do more reading about it. I thought most subdominant chords were a fifth above a target chord. For instance, we did a version of "I Heard the Bells On Christmas Day" for church. In the key of Bb, everything is pretty diatonic except the last chord coming out of each verse is D7/A with an Gm as the next chord. In my mind, the D should be a 3 chord and minor. I asked the keyboard player (music teacher) and he said that functioned as a Subdominant.

 

[AGCurry]

I don't completely have a grasp on non diatonic subdominant chords. I'll have to do more reading about it. I thought most subdominant chords were a fifth above a target chord. For instance, we did a version of "I Heard the Bells On Christmas Day" for church. In the key of Bb, everything is pretty diatonic except the last chord coming out of each verse is D7/A with an Gm as the next chord. In my mind, the D should be a 3 chord and minor. I asked the keyboard player (music teacher) and he said that functioned as a Subdominant.

You may have dominant and subdominant chords "switched." A dominant chord is V, subdominant is IV.

The D7/A in the key of Bb major is a common device to get to the relative minor chord (Gm), because it is the dominant chord of the "target" Gm, and the A note in the bass also leads strongly to that target.

 

[kirkdickinson]

You may have dominant and subdominant chords "switched." A dominant chord is V, subdominant is IV.

The D7/A in the key of Bb major is a common device to get to the relative minor chord (Gm), because it is the dominant chord of the "target" Gm, and the A note in the bass also leads strongly to that target.

Yep, you are right. I used the wrong terminology. In the key of C, the G7 Is the Dominant chord, but if you play a D7, then a G7, what is that called? Secondary Dominant? I think I got Subdominant and Secondary Dominant confused. The music teacher friend probably told me Secondary Dominant instead of subdominant.

 

[g-dude]

I don't completely have a grasp on non diatonic subdominant chords. I'll have to do more reading about it. I thought most subdominant chords were a fifth above a target chord. For instance, we did a version of "I Heard the Bells On Christmas Day" for church. In the key of Bb, everything is pretty diatonic except the last chord coming out of each verse is D7/A with an Gm as the next chord. In my mind, the D should be a 3 chord and minor. I asked the keyboard player (music teacher) and he said that functioned as a Subdominant.

The D7 would be the V/vi - which is a secondary dominant.

Yep, you are right. I used the wrong terminology. In the key of C, the G7 Is the Dominant chord, but if you play a D7, then a G7, what is that called? Secondary Dominant? I think I got Subdominant and Secondary Dominant confused. The music teacher friend probably told me Secondary Dominant instead of subdominant.

In C, the D7 would be the V/V - also a secondary dominant.

 

[fretlessman71]

I see this as a borrowed chord from the Parallel Minor. Check this out:

Amaj, Bmin, C#min, Dmaj, Emaj, F#min, G#dim, right? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

"Parallel Minor" is an idea that any major chord progression can "borrow" chords from a minor key with the same root. So:

6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5: Amin, Bdim, Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj.

I know, it seems convoluted and weird.

But insert any of those chords from the parallel minor into the Cure song and see how natural it sounds.

It's very strange! But this explains chord progressions like Sweet Home Alabama, which also uses a chord from Parallel Minor: Dmaj, Cmaj, Gmaj is I-bVII-IV in D, not V-IV-I in G. There's something about recognizing the "home root note" that allows us to readily accept these chords that are clearly outside the key.

If you doubt this, listen to some classical music and see how often the key of a song changes from major to minor and back again with the same root note.

 

[Les Fret]

I just see the G as a bVII chord in A major. Fairly common in rock and pop. Don’t make a Cure song too complicated in theoretical terms.

 

[InhumanResource]

Am I crazy to think of it as A minor and then everything falls into place diatonically, more or less?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Am I crazy to think of it as A minor and then everything falls into place diatonically, more or less?

LOL.

I have some "glitches."

(Looking for F#minor chord)
A natural minor.

Maybe, A harmonic minor?

Still, no champagne.

Maybe, A melodic?

We are getting close, very close, but...

A mixolydian mode?
YES!

 

[MonetBass]

I think @fretlessman71 is on the right track. Don't overthink it. To me, I think it's just a borrowed chord as well. Since none of the surrounding chords are non-diatonic, this makes more sense than an actual modulation.

 

[kirkdickinson]

I see this as a borrowed chord from the Parallel Minor. Check this out:

Amaj, Bmin, C#min, Dmaj, Emaj, F#min, G#dim, right? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

"Parallel Minor" is an idea that any major chord progression can "borrow" chords from a minor key with the same root. So:

6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5: Amin, Bdim, Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, Fmaj, Gmaj.

I know, it seems convoluted and weird.

But insert any of those chords from the parallel minor into the Cure song and see how natural it sounds.

It's very strange! But this explains chord progressions like Sweet Home Alabama, which also uses a chord from Parallel Minor: Dmaj, Cmaj, Gmaj is I-bVII-IV in D, not V-IV-I in G. There's something about recognizing the "home root note" that allows us to readily accept these chords that are clearly outside the key.

If you doubt this, listen to some classical music and see how often the key of a song changes from major to minor and back again with the same root note.

I think that borrowing from a Parallel Minor is the same thing as Modal Interchange. You are in Ionian(major) and you borrow a chord from the Aeolian(minor).

I think these techniques and descriptions are ways to describe chords that work but are outside the diatonic. When I first learned the scales and modes, I drilled and drilled so much that when I see chords on a sheet or hear something that diverges from diatonic, it really jumps at me. A teacher years ago told me it doesn't matter if you break all the rules if it sounds good. "If it sounds good, it is good."

I went to an open night jam last night and we did jammed a 12 bar. I locked in with the drums and played a mix of pentatonic and lots and lots of chromatic notes. I wasn't really thinking about key or mode patterns at all. I did some whole step/half step walk ups. Just played by feel and muscle memory only. I made it a priority to get back to the root on 1 and that was really all I was thinking about. My old teacher was on the guitar. When we got through jamming, he had this big cheshire cat grin and told me that was the most fun he had had jamming the 12 bar in a long time and he thought we were really connecting. Oh, and I played my fretless.

 

[themickster]

Listening to “The Cure” “Just Like Heaven” last night while watching a movie of the same name. In the bridge section, at first thought I heard a key change, then I thought it was a modulation. Then I decided it was a Modal Interchange. The majority of the song is A - E - Bm - D A major, 1 - 5 - 2 - 4 Then in the Bridge, something changes. It goes back and forth between F#m and G. F#m is the 6 chord in A major, but G isn’t in A major. But G is the 7 major chord for A Mixolydian.

https://youtu.be/n3nPiBai66M

I had seen Youtubes about Modal Interchange before, but this is the first time I was just passively listening to music when jumped out at me and I thought... "That is a Modal Interchange."

I often write a bridge in another key

 

[Engle]

I don’t know much about the Cure, but I wonder if they knew what they were doing in terms of theory?

 

[Smooth_bass88]

27021999[/URL], member: 215103"]Listening to “The Cure” “Just Like Heaven” last night while watching a movie of the same name. In the bridge section, at first thought I heard a key change, then I thought it was a modulation. Then I decided it was a Modal Interchange. The majority of the song is A - E - Bm - D A major, 1 - 5 - 2 - 4 Then in the Bridge, something changes. It goes back and forth between F#m and G. F#m is the 6 chord in A major, but G isn’t in A major. But G is the 7 major chord for A Mixolydian.

https://youtu.be/n3nPiBai66M

I had seen Youtubes about Modal Interchange before, but this is the first time I was just passively listening to music when jumped out at me and I thought... "That is a Modal Interchange."

Does the note C# occur anywhere in the song? I think not, therefore A Mixolydian would not apply here (correct me if I’m wrong).

I simply think of the song as in the key of one sharp (G major)

EDIT: just looked up some transcriptions of said tune and they’re all in D major. I stand corrected

 

[kirkdickinson]

Does the note C# occur anywhere in the song? I think not, therefore A Mixolydian would not apply here (correct me if I’m wrong).

I simply think of the song as in the key of one sharp (G major)

The first chord is Amaj.... A-C#-E, Second chord Emaj... E-G#-B, Third chord is Bm... B-D-F#, Forth chord is Dmaj... D-F#-A. Notes used in the verses... A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#

I count 3 sharps there which in my mind firmly puts it in Amaj. That is until the bridge where there is a Gmaj.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

Found this… better than I can personally explain modal interchange.


“Modal interchange is using chords from a parallel key while retaining the same tonal center. Tonal center refers mainly to the root note of the 1 chord. Parallel key and mode are synonymous terms which refer to scales containing different notes but sharing the same root note.

The important difference between modulation and modal interchange is a modulation changes the tonal center, while modal interchange does not.”