Modern Amp Shopping - Negligible Differences?

[capnjagg]

Hey all, been on the hunt for a lighter rig, fairly interested in a class D amp head, and for context, mostly just playing post punk/indie rock/emo type stuff (think Joy Division, Weezer, Yuck, Pedro the Lion). After hearing demo after demo after demo, it seems to me like the differences are pretty negligible, yeah (or at least beneath a certain price point)? I mean sure, and Ampeg and a GK will have a certain “baked in” character, but in a mix, especially with a preamp pedal before it (Tech 21 YYZ), is it going to make much difference at all deciding between Ampeg/Fender/GK/Hartke/TC/MarkBass?

It just seems like there’s a point of price/loudness/reliability where it’s “good enough,” especially in a mix. I’m sure plenty of folks will chime in to say “just spend a little more and drop the money on X amp,” but I’d like to stay below $500 new/used on a head if I can. I don’t mind a class A/B either, but it seems like most everything I’d be interested in these days has gone up in price to the point where I may as well grab a class D.

As for a cab/cabs, that to me seems to be where it’s worth it to spend a little more to get something light/loud/reliable. Love 410s (a 210 stack would be cool), also love a single 15 setup, especially if I can get away with just lugging one cab. This would be for smaller local venues (basements, bars/restaurants/small shops, under 300 capacity venues, etc).

Any wisdom and guidance for my indecisive self would be well appreciated.

 

[basss]

I'm real happy with the TC BQ500. Gets very loud and sounds good to me and I've owned a few nice heads over the years and played many more.

 

[Yogi Bear]

It just seems like there’s a point of price/loudness/reliability where it’s “good enough,” especially in a mix. I’m sure plenty of folks will chime in to say “just spend a little more and drop the money on X amp,” but I’d like to stay below $500 new/used on a head if I can. I don’t mind a class A/B either, but it seems like most everything I’d be interested in these days has gone up in price to the point where I may as well grab a class D.

I feel there is a certain element of truth to what you're saying. Of the three points you mention "price/loudness/reliability", when shopping for a head, the two I generally have shot for are price and reliability, to me that is where you often see the biggest difference in price points of similar spec'd heads. $500 used will open a host of options and the TB classifieds is often one of the best places to buy with confidence and to find a good deal. Many members will often jump on the latest and greatest, only to turn around and sell at a substantial discount within a short time of owning gear... something I have been guilty of myself.

Other than that, in my personal experience I have felt that amps with some sort of tube pre accept pedals better than those without. It's probably my novice ear, but I swear I hear a more accurate representation of the pedal and better sound quality (says the guy with a modeling amp).

 

[gtirard]

I agree that the cab makes more difference.

• You can get a good amp for a reasonable price. It's not that they are all identical, but it's more a matter of taste. Also you can hear the differences when you actually play them better than when you listen to Youtube demos.
• But from my experience, when you buy a cab, you really get what you pay for.

 

[Wasnex]

A significant factor is probably you. I used to be hypersensitive to little tonal nuances. But I have noticed that either I don't hear them as well as I used to, or I don't care the same way. If it doesn't matter then look at value VS performance.

I was a military musician and generally went through available gear in our supply section. My priority is a very clear and focused tone...I like to hear the pitch and every little nuance in my playing. While I also love nice, fat lows, I will sacrifice them for clarity and focus.

I played a wide variety of rigs over the years. I also rejected a wide variety of gear that was available to me. To choose, I went through the inventory and checked out gear combinations that seemed to have potential. After doing demos, I chose whichever combinations I liked the best. I used some rigs for years at a time, but others did not seem to work well for me on the gig, so after a few months, I tried other combinations.

Example: For awhile, I used an Eden WT800 paired with my choice of D210XLT and D410XLT. Many players love this rig, but I always struggled to dial in a nice sweet sound in the high mids. Part of it was the cabs and part of it was the amp. When the amp went down, I turned it in and moved on. I kept the cabs. My next rig was an Ashley MX508 rack mixer and a QSC USA 900 power amp. I still struggled a bit to dial in the high-mids, but much less so than with the WT800. I used this rig until I cross trained to audio.

For my personal gig rig, I chose a GK 700RB/112 combo. This seemed like the best amp I could find that would fit in the trunk of my car. I had previously played a GK 800RB biamped into a Bag End S15D and Ramsa WS-A200. This was one of the clearest and most articulate rigs I have ever used, so I expected to love the combo. But unfortunately the speakers were a huge part of the 800RB rig's sound. The combo tends to be a bit more loose and unfocused down low. My guess is the speaker cab is a bit too small for the driver. Getting the combo off the floor by at least 18 inches helps immensely.

 

[SJan3]

Hey all, been on the hunt for a lighter rig, fairly interested in a class D amp head, and for context, mostly just playing post punk/indie rock/emo type stuff (think Joy Division, Weezer, Yuck, Pedro the Lion). After hearing demo after demo after demo, it seems to me like the differences are pretty negligible, yeah (or at least beneath a certain price point)? I mean sure, and Ampeg and a GK will have a certain “baked in” character, but in a mix, especially with a preamp pedal before it (Tech 21 YYZ), is it going to make much difference at all deciding between Ampeg/Fender/GK/Hartke/TC/MarkBass?

It just seems like there’s a point of price/loudness/reliability where it’s “good enough,” especially in a mix. I’m sure plenty of folks will chime in to say “just spend a little more and drop the money on X amp,” but I’d like to stay below $500 new/used on a head if I can. I don’t mind a class A/B either, but it seems like most everything I’d be interested in these days has gone up in price to the point where I may as well grab a class D.

As for a cab/cabs, that to me seems to be where it’s worth it to spend a little more to get something light/loud/reliable. Love 410s (a 210 stack would be cool), also love a single 15 setup, especially if I can get away with just lugging one cab. This would be for smaller local venues (basements, bars/restaurants/small shops, under 300 capacity venues, etc).

Any wisdom and guidance for my indecisive self would be well appreciated.

Check out the MarkBass MB58R 500 watt head on sale at M.F. for $509+the gov.
A steal for that kind of power/performance.

 

[basss]

I agree that the cab makes more difference.

• You can get a good amp for a reasonable price. It's not that they are all identical, but it's more a matter of taste. Also you can hear the differences when you actually play them better than when you listen to Youtube demos.
• But from my experience, when you buy a cab, you really get what you pay for.

Agree with this. Cheap cabs generally don't sound good IME.

 

[Marko 1]

I’d like to stay below $500

$399.99, 600 watts, leaves a few more bucks to put towards your cab.

MiniMax V2 600-watt Lightweight Bass Head - Sweetwater

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Hey all, been on the hunt for a lighter rig, fairly interested in a class D amp head, and for context, mostly just playing post punk/indie rock/emo type stuff (think Joy Division, Weezer, Yuck, Pedro the Lion). After hearing demo after demo after demo, it seems to me like the differences are pretty negligible, yeah (or at least beneath a certain price point)? I mean sure, and Ampeg and a GK will have a certain “baked in” character, but in a mix, especially with a preamp pedal before it (Tech 21 YYZ), is it going to make much difference at all deciding between Ampeg/Fender/GK/Hartke/TC/MarkBass?

It just seems like there’s a point of price/loudness/reliability where it’s “good enough,” especially in a mix. I’m sure plenty of folks will chime in to say “just spend a little more and drop the money on X amp,” but I’d like to stay below $500 new/used on a head if I can. I don’t mind a class A/B either, but it seems like most everything I’d be interested in these days has gone up in price to the point where I may as well grab a class D.

As for a cab/cabs, that to me seems to be where it’s worth it to spend a little more to get something light/loud/reliable. Love 410s (a 210 stack would be cool), also love a single 15 setup, especially if I can get away with just lugging one cab. This would be for smaller local venues (basements, bars/restaurants/small shops, under 300 capacity venues, etc).

Any wisdom and guidance for my indecisive self would be well appreciated.

Just one more piece of info about cabs. In 2015 I bought a DNS-410 cab by DNA. I figured it would be the last cab I ever needed to buy because it handles 1400-watts rms, is super clear, clean, and articulate; and has a tight and focused bottom end. It sounds great and worked great right up until I took it into a small brewpub. Owner's eyes got huge when he saw me roll it in. He came over saying, "No, that's way too much for here." He then pointed to a small Peavey 112 combo and said, "use that one." I told him I can play quietly with this big cab and he still shook his head and said, "use that one". As I later found out playing other brew pubs, that 410 scared them. So I needed to find something that worked at small venues and still sounded good.

I could not get a sound I liked out of it so eventually bought the small class D Eden TN-226 amp (225-watts into 4Ω) and an Eden EX112 cab. I still use that for small venues. I added a second EX-112 cab later and used the two 112's for medium sized clubs. In 2019 when I became a DNA endorsing artist, I bought the DNS-210 because it sounded like my 410 but was in a smaller form factor, and nobody looks twice at a bass player bringing in a 210, even in small brew pubs. I now have a DNS-210 (handles 700-watts rms) that I use for all my indoor venues (small, medium, and large) and I use my DNS-410 for outdoor and music festivals.

If I had it to do over, I would have bought one 210 first, which with most manufacturers will handle small and medium venues just fine, and added a second one when I needed it to handle larger or outdoor venues, and music festivals. Then just bring one to most venues and add the second one as needed.

Here's my 210 on top of my 410. I only used the 210 because it was louder than I needed for this large venue. The amp driving it is an Eden WT500/800 bridged at 800-watts into my 8Ω 210 cab. Since then I use my DNS-210 on an amp stand at all my indoor venues and use my DNA-800 amp to power it.

 

[Blues Bass 2]

If you are using a pedal for your tone most class D amps will sound the same . If you use the amp alone with it's EQ section there are big differences in tone . A Fender Rumble doesn't sound like an Ampeg , a Genz doesn't sound like a GK and so forth .

 

[Boneless]

Most Class D amps use Icepower modules, to my knowledge. They have close to a monopoly. This means that the power amps will sound, essentially, the same. (People say that power amps do not have inherent tone, and that tends to be sort of true, when compared to the average bass or, even more, guitar preamps; but they will still exhibit a certain behaviour when pushed, for instance, which goes towards producing a certain tone nonetheless. Think dynamic response, or distortion profile).

Many bass preamps on modern amps tend to be very neutral (and they almost always are more neutral than guitar preamps anyway) and differentiate more based on features rather than inherent tone (eg. EQ and choice of filter frequencies, contour or "extra bass"/"bright" filters, onboard compression, drive channel) whereas "vintage" voiced preamps may have more of a "tone" because they may have a tonestack which shapes the tone quite a lot. Or tubes, properly driven, since they will contribute distortion. (If not properly driven they essentially are used only as a waveshaper of sorts, but not with the same "curve" as when properly driven, since they will tend to clip harder). Or even not tubes, but a circuit deliberately designed to distort. It's kinda complex.

Anyway, the cheaper amps tend to do the easiest thing, which is use a bunch of opamps (to preamplify a bass, without taking into account EQ and other stuff, you only need *one* chip, really, two maybe, and these days you can get chips to do so extremely cleanly and noise free and pay them literal pennies, maybe a couple of dollars if you get the fancy stuff, especially when manufacturing at scale). Assuming some basic "rules" are followed, it's kinda hard to make a bass preamp which doesn't sound right.

 

[bottomzone]

I really like my Phil Jones BP-800 paired with my C4 cabinet. The amp is fairly quiet and has a simple but very effective EQ.

 

[CalBuzz51]

You can often find Genz Benz Shuttles 600w insanely cheap used, great features, DI Out, Aux in, headphone out, effects loop, etc. Great sounding reliable amps.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

I think my Markbass tube 800 is the most uncolored amp I've ever owned. The filters can get it from funk to rock in a few twists.
Takes pedals well. And loud as I'll ever need.

 

[coy garcia]

I got the ampeg pf50t as a lighter version or my mesa boogie 400.... In your situation if you like the tone of your tech 21, maybe a high quality powered monitor is what you seek. My guitar players that use the fractal went this route and are very happy.

 

[agedhorse]

Most Class D amps use Icepower modules, to my knowledge. They have close to a monopoly. This means that the power amps will sound, essentially, the same. (People say that power amps do not have inherent tone, and that tends to be sort of true, when compared to the average bass or, even more, guitar preamps; but they will still exhibit a certain behaviour when pushed, for instance, which goes towards producing a certain tone nonetheless. Think dynamic response, or distortion profile).

Many bass preamps on modern amps tend to be very neutral (and they almost always are more neutral than guitar preamps anyway) and differentiate more based on features rather than inherent tone (eg. EQ and choice of filter frequencies, contour or "extra bass"/"bright" filters, onboard compression, drive channel) whereas "vintage" voiced preamps may have more of a "tone" because they may have a tonestack which shapes the tone quite a lot. Or tubes, properly driven, since they will contribute distortion. (If not properly driven they essentially are used only as a waveshaper of sorts, but not with the same "curve" as when properly driven, since they will tend to clip harder). Or even not tubes, but a circuit deliberately designed to distort. It's kinda complex.

Anyway, the cheaper amps tend to do the easiest thing, which is use a bunch of opamps (to preamplify a bass, without taking into account EQ and other stuff, you only need *one* chip, really, two maybe, and these days you can get chips to do so extremely cleanly and noise free and pay them literal pennies, maybe a couple of dollars if you get the fancy stuff, especially when manufacturing at scale). Assuming some basic "rules" are followed, it's kinda hard to make a bass preamp which doesn't sound right.

Except that much of what you posted isn’t true.

Your lack of understanding about ”chips” is painfully obvious. IC’s are used for many different aspects of amp design, including voltage amplification, current amplification, simple filters, eq, voicing filters, compressor CV filters and log amps, limiter elements, servos, analog logic, relay drivers, detectors, etc.

Some class D power amps using ICEPower also use additional signal processing techniques, and these may not sound or feel the same (especially close to rated output).

 

[jthisdell]

I don’t think watching videos, listening to sound clips are going to tell you anything about how a certain amp is going to sound with you and your bass, as said above, the cab is most important but again, you need to try it with your gear.

 

[Hounddog409]

Hey all, been on the hunt for a lighter rig, fairly interested in a class D amp head, and for context, mostly just playing post punk/indie rock/emo type stuff (think Joy Division, Weezer, Yuck, Pedro the Lion). After hearing demo after demo after demo, it seems to me like the differences are pretty negligible, yeah (or at least beneath a certain price point)? I mean sure, and Ampeg and a GK will have a certain “baked in” character, but in a mix, especially with a preamp pedal before it (Tech 21 YYZ), is it going to make much difference at all deciding between Ampeg/Fender/GK/Hartke/TC/MarkBass?

It just seems like there’s a point of price/loudness/reliability where it’s “good enough,” especially in a mix. I’m sure plenty of folks will chime in to say “just spend a little more and drop the money on X amp,” but I’d like to stay below $500 new/used on a head if I can. I don’t mind a class A/B either, but it seems like most everything I’d be interested in these days has gone up in price to the point where I may as well grab a class D.

As for a cab/cabs, that to me seems to be where it’s worth it to spend a little more to get something light/loud/reliable. Love 410s (a 210 stack would be cool), also love a single 15 setup, especially if I can get away with just lugging one cab. This would be for smaller local venues (basements, bars/restaurants/small shops, under 300 capacity venues, etc).

Any wisdom and guidance for my indecisive self would be well appreciated.

Kinda agree. In a live setting now on will tell the difference.

Features if the amp matter though and make sone stand out vs others.

2 amp capable and speakon connectors are a must for me. Built in compressor is nice, as is some sort of over drive.

 

[GreyBeard]

If you are using a pedal for your tone most class D amps will sound the same . If you use the amp alone with it's EQ section there are big differences in tone . A Fender Rumble doesn't sound like an Ampeg , a Genz doesn't sound like a GK and so forth .

Yes, the preamp section of a class D head is what gives it that baked in sound. I have both a Rumble 500 head and an Ampeg pf500 head. They don't sound anything alike but, if I use a pedal preamp (Mesa preamp-DI) into the FX return bypassing the heads pre, they sound identical.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

My 2c worth, I'd be going lightweight cab(s) and looking for an A/B amp. Yet to find a "D" that works for me.