Modern micro amps - disposable?

[David Jayne]

Ok, so money. That I'll buy, no pun intended. So it's too expensive to produce tubes here (US). Ok. But it will happen elsewhere. Forever, I predict (but we'll never know!). : D

 

[agedhorse]

Not just money... a LOT of money for a small market. Then there's the specialized tooling/machinery and lots of fairly skilled labor. Not a good match-up for manufacturing in any developed country.

 

[David Jayne]

I hear ya. Still think they won't go away. Not in our lifetimes.

 

[seamonkey]

It won't last that countries that are willing to produce old technologies for small niche markets will continue to due so. Those countries want the high technology and clean environment just as much as any country wants it. Eventually they'll learn much more people are willing to pay more money for higher tech in the long run.

Nobody is cutting the glass off tubes to fix the insides. A tube is a component. A class-d amp module is a component in many cases.
Class-D will last longer and use less energy to make and maintain.

 

[B-string]

B string - that is an MSDS intended for those who may handle large amounts. It simply does not apply to folks like you and I who will never see it. The material is used in bulk, in this country for a variety of uses. How about beryllium? Race car brakes are often made of it. Highly toxic. But nobody freaks out about it. The makers just use caution and common sense.

David it is just this kind of concern that closed the Raytheon plant where an old family friend headed vacuum tube production. The environmental cleanup cost from the facility alone were huge, but considered in the end a better risk than re purposing the building. Their product included classified material as well as commercial and limited consumer.

 

[agedhorse]

An old engineer friend of mine is very familiar with the end of living of these industries, very dirty industries with huge legacy environmental liabilities. As a CE working for the military, he was in charge of some of these sites which all had military areas within their "campuses" even the clean ups were classified because of the nature of all of the business conducted at those sites.

 

[B-string]

I remember their buildings were under secure government cleanup for a long time after private contractors had finished work. We had a tour as youngsters and I thought the lines with painted stripes between being called a wall was crazy. It surrounded a secured work area by 50 yards on all sides. We of course never found out what was going on inside there.

 

[RoadRanger]

Kinda funny, a local company used to machine the atomic bomb "cores" and would just bury the worn-out contaminated tools on-site. A few years' back the grubberment decided that maybe they should dig them up and dispose of them "properly". Unfortunately they didn't keep records of where they were buried and couldn't find them. So ... the decision was made - since they were now completely turned to rust and low enough level to not pose a danger - to give up .

 

[primusfan1989]

So, I've been thinking. I have an old GK 400RB, the last of the original series born in January 1990. It looks like it's been thrown down a few flights of stairs in it's life, and probably been run over by a tractor at least once, but it works a treat. I also know that I can always find someone who can repair it and maintain it so that it will easily last another 26 years.

I also purchased an MB Fusion this year. Great little amp, but I seriously wonder if it'll be around and still being gigged in a few decades. I feel like these new micro amps are a bit like modern TVs, in that the first time they break, they'll just be garbage. It makes me a little sad.

Discuss!

Edited to add: Out of warranty obviously, after several years of useful life, due to age related wear.

Im inclined to agree with you on a lot of these new micro heads, those class-d amps (like most things manufactured today) are not built to last. From Markbass heads to QSC power amps, I've seen and alarming amount of these things blow up with 5 yrs of purchase (conveniently after the warranty runs out in most cases) and can't be salvaged due to the nature of the design and parts involved. However, my heavy old QSC RMX850 and Hartke 3500 look as if they've been through WWIII and still take a licking and keep on ticking.

 

[dincz]

those class-d amps (like most things manufactured today) are not built to last.

I think reliability has improved dramatically, but repairability (at a reasonable price) has taken a hit.

 

[agedhorse]

QSC's failing primusfan?

I owned maybe 30 of the PLX series (switch mode) and have not had a failure ever in the maybe 15+ years I have used them. I have another couple dozen in installations I service with pretty much the same record.

Your comment does not ring true to my extensive experience with their SMPS amps. In fact, the failure rate was higher on the RMX and series 2 models (supported a chain of cinemas with several thousand) but even then it was pretty low.

 

[arbiterusa]

Even something as simple sounding as spraying cabinets or chassis with "real" paint is a lot more costly here than in many developing nations... spray booth permit costs in CA are eye opening, you have to spray a lot of cabinets to make it pencil out.

I used to spray (and everything else) for SCGC back in the nineties. Two years ago, asked my local body shop what permit costs were for a spray booth. Quarter million dollars just for the permit process and that's IF you live in a county that allows it. Most don't.

Tube making? Dead glass walking. It's not the most deadly thing being made out there but you can't justify the minimal sales and corresponding minimal profit margin if you have to clean up the mess caused by making them in the first place. Old-school high-VOC nitro lacquer will meet the same fate in a few years. I have to jump through all kinds of hoops to get that stuff these days, and it's simply going to be banned here soon. But truth be told, just like with tubes, there are better alternatives if you're willing to learn to use them.

 

[primusfan1989]

QSC's failing primusfan?

I owned maybe 30 of the PLX series (switch mode) and have not had a failure ever in the maybe 15+ years I have used them. I have another couple dozen in installations I service with pretty much the same record.

Your comment does not ring true to my extensive experience with their SMPS amps. In fact, the failure rate was higher on the RMX and series 2 models (supported a chain of cinemas with several thousand) but even then it was pretty low.

I saw a brand new QSC class d amp (couldn't say what model it was/if it was usa made or not) not even have 2 months of use before it blew (literally it popped and started smoking) and was beyond repair. I really don't care how my comment rings with your experience, the fact remains that amp blew up for no apparent reason. just because you have had a good experience doesn't discredit my bad experience Im not trashing QSC, as i stated earlier i own a RMX and i love it, bought it used for a steal and haven't had a single issue with it. I don't like or trust class d circuitry, when it fails its catastrophic and can't be repaired....so i agree with the OP, Class D (d is for disposable)

 

[B-string]

Inconsequential, I've seen class A/B tube amps self destruct and rendered un repairable as well.

 

[agedhorse]

I saw a brand new QSC class d amp (couldn't say what model it was/if it was usa made or not) not even have 2 months of use before it blew (literally it popped and started smoking) and was beyond repair. I really don't care how my comment rings with your experience, the fact remains that amp blew up for no apparent reason. just because you have had a good experience doesn't discredit my bad experience Im not trashing QSC, as i stated earlier i own a RMX and i love it, bought it used for a steal and haven't had a single issue with it. I don't like or trust class d circuitry, when it fails its catastrophic and can't be repaired....so i agree with the OP, Class D (d is for disposable)

So, out of a sample quantity of one a single amp failed, you don't know why, it's fully covered under warranty so it's disposable? Your conclusion does not match my decades of QSC experience either.

I will also say with certainty that every class D bass amp that I have designed (for GB) is still fully supported and repairable. Not 25%, or 50% but 100% repairable AND I have been doing this for TB members for YEARS here on the forum. Both at the component level in most cases but sometimes it's less expensive to repair at the board level (on a case by case basis). For the most common products in the line, the labor charge is only $75 including all parts except tubes and power module, and in all of last year I only replaced 2 power modules. I don't see how this is uneconomical for a repair?

Your OPINION is that they are not repairable and thus disposable. My FACTS are that they are both repairable AND not disposable, backed up by actually doing this very thing. Let's not confuse opinion with fact.

Inconsequential, I've seen class A/B tube amps self destruct and rendered un repairable as well.

Absolutely. There can be catastrophic failures with ANY product, and if the product has little value (or has an obsolete feature set) then it may not be worth repairing but most manufacturers will support products that have value. Now there are some companies that just don't care about ANY product out of warranty, or their cost of repair is inflated to where it doesn't make any sense to repair, but that is a specific business model that sacrifices low cost for low customer service and support. To that, I just say that it may be a better value to pick the companies you do business with a little more carefully... or don't bitch about products not being repairable.

 

[dincz]

I really don't care how my comment rings with your experience, the fact remains that amp blew up for no apparent reason.

You probably should care. A sample of 30 is statistically much more valid than a sample of 1.

 

[Ric Vice]

I don't like or trust class d circuitry, ....so i agree with the OP, Class D (d is for disposable)

I've owned three different Walter Woods amps, all with SMPS. I still have two of them. Both my Woods MI-400-8 and Electrocoustic Ultra have been completely reliable over nearly 25 years of playing. I also own an Ampeg B-15N(C) which due to a fauilty portable AC Generator had to have it's OT replaced. It's 50 years old .Unfortunately, it's easier to source parts and repair the B-15 than either of my Walter Woods amps, but that's a different story, for another thread. Regardless, the B-15 wastes a lot of energy for a 25 watt amp.

Ric

 

[Red Planet]

I think that those designers built things the easiest, quickest way possible to be cost effective. They built with whatever was available.. tubes, then transisters.. my old Peavey Bass head is probably really similar to a tube amp except with honking big power transistors on a giant aluminum heat sink.. giant transformer etc. All the electronics were pretty much point to point because that was the only way they knew how to do it... I think if they could have saved 75% on labor by surface mounting small components and attaching the pots to the boards etc. I give the old pioneering engineers a lot of credit, but I don't think this is one of them.

Its definitely one of them. I have used many machine designed by a man that was meant to last forever. A cell phone was not one of them however.

 

[Red Planet]

In 2067 chances are good tubes won't be produced either and these large electronic parts that repair tube and "heavy iron" amps will be a thing of the past. Look at the cost of copper alone for winding transformers. Someone may "print" something that is supposed to be that day's versions, but will likely pale in the process. Obsolescence is obsolescence, "tube" production barely hangs on today. Winged =C= anyone?

I 100% concur.

 

[Red Planet]

The problem is that on the manufacturer's side, it's very costly from the regulatory perspective. There's lots of stuff like this that's not a bid deal until you try to get permits to purchase, store, and manufacture with.
Even something as simple sounding as spraying cabinets or chassis with "real" paint is a lot more costly here than in many developing nations... spray booth permit costs in CA are eye opening, you have to spray a lot of cabinets to make it pencil out. Multiply it by a large factor to handle materials such as Thorium, Neodymium, etc. That's why none of it is done here anymore.

Invalid Link Removed

Agreed, our government has gotten out of control and has been for a long time. Its time for a reset. Hope that's not too political, I'm sure I'll find out if it is.

What's really interesting is our government doesn't follow its own rules I know this for performing top secret things on top secret government items. Anything that is manufactured for our government for ***** purposes is above all of the environmental hoopla hoops they have us jumping through. Processes that everyone thought was totally outlawed and banished from existence is still being performed at record pace for the government, while government has put the squeeze on folks trying to make a living for their families.