Modern micro amps - disposable?

[MrLenny1]

For $700 I hope my amp is not disposable.

 

[Aragorn35016]

Again, it is not the technology per se that is problematic (especially for someone with your qualifications), it is the fact that there is a big imbalance between cost (and availability) of personnel, training, additional equipment and documentation against quick depriciation, short production runs and a stagnant or shrinking market. There are no winners in this game.

Oh I absolutely agree, I work in field to where some of the boards I work on may have in upwards of 20K worth of components on them, so it makes sense to have highly trained people repair to component level to not scrap a card. I'm not suggesting that the companies themselves invest in those people for component level repair, but the run of the mill repair guy external with some basic training and exp, could remove and replace every SMT part in that pic in about an hour with some pretty basic tooling. He doesn't necessarily need to charge hundreds of dollars for a repair, that would in turn make the amp "disposable" I guess I'm just tying to emphasize to those that are a little scared of the SMT world that its really not all that bad to learn to do for most of the components that are used in these amps. The only thing that may make it challenging is if the manufacturer went cheap on the boards and the pads start lifting, but even that is repairable.

 

[Interceptor]

I've had the joy of repairing radar equipment manufactured in Arab, AL. Nice stuff!

Aragorn35016 said it well. Surface mount repair is a skill that can be mastered easily enough.

 

[Jeff Scott]

For $700 I hope my amp is not disposable.

Haven't you noticed that the price point for disposable products has risen in recent years?

 

[agedhorse]

You represent a "premium" brand, and work in the US. Please widen your scope a bit, to include other brands and the rest of the globe. I have a bit of insight in the music gear service business in Sweden, which probably is a typical example of a western, non-US country. Quality and supply of qualified MI electronics repair is dwindling. Why?

Well, first of all, margins and prices on new gear is dropping, leaving less budget to hire and supply a service organisation. Finding good staff is hard, as many people that are interested in advanced technology prefer other business (like computers and industrial electronics) and those that are interested in MI gear often lack the competence, motivation and interest to work with PWM/SMPS, SMT, digital setups, new soldering methods etc.
Model series tend to have a short life and the selection is as wide or wider than ever.
We agree that one often needs more hardware to work on the new stuff; service manuals that were "nice to have" when working on traditional gear might be an absolute must now, along with break-out-boxes, wire looms for trouble shooting, bench mounted "vices", magnifying lenses and lights, more advanced scopes (to trouble shoot HF signals in SPMS) etc.
There is also a higher demand in general, on the technincians, as they BOTH need to know how to repair old, "immortal" tube amps, conventional amps from the 80s and up, as well as new micros.
Add to this, what seems to be a general decline in the interest in "playing in a band", plus a rich supply of used non-micro, quality gear; EBS, SWR, Trace Elliot, Fender, Marshall, Yamaha, GK etc.
On top of it, shipping is fairly expensive.

Sooo...
Slightly exaggerated; there is a picky but shrinking crowd of potential buyers, a lot of good, used gear, shrinking margins and sales volumes on new stuff, which has shorter product life cycles and requires additional training, documentation and hardware to be serviced. Recruiting service technicians is harder than before, as fewer people want to work with this and requirements are tougher.
As a whole, this leads to less and less interest (from both customers and industry!) in repairing new gear once warranty has expired. It is not my "opinion", it is a fact, at least in this country.
Somewhat ironically, the convenience and novelity of the modern mini bass amps guarantees that some of them still get repaired at an eventual failure. But a four year old, six channel mixer? A "prosumer" sound card? A generic 2x300W PA amp for the rehearsal room? They are not getting repaired, just replaced.

Ok, let me expand my comments to include Fender and GK products then. IMO, these too are easily repaired by a real tech. If a facility does not have real techs, then they shouldn't be called a service facility.

If you want to include things like sound cards, prosumer and consumer electronics, it is usually less expensive to replace because the cost (and scale) of manufacture can be pretty darn cheap. Sure, why spend $75 repairing something than can be bought new for $69. That's not what we have been discussing.

 

[static0verdrive]

I can and have repaired surface-mount stuff, but it does boil down to whether it's cost-effective to do so. I use a loose formula to decide:

If the total cost of my time to diagnose & repair PLUS parts is less than the cost of [the amp in this case], I'll do it. Otherwise, try to sell it (clearly marked as having an issue of course) and buy another, used if possible, or else new.

The tricky part to the above is deciding how much my time is worth, not to mention guessing how much of it I might need before I a) know what the problem really is, and b) know how difficult and/or time-consuming it will be to repair it.

Factoring all of that in, I usually land somewhere in the middle of the whole debate: A $350 class D amp new ($200 used) might not end up being worthwhile FOR ME to repair, but a $1000 one would be. Still class D here because a $1000 tube amp is always worth repairing considering they're often much simpler anyway.

My 2 cents, and it's worthless if you can't do repairs yourself. Getting a shop involved changes my whole formula above, but I think I end up with a somewhat similar decision-making process.

Happy new year! All the best in 2016.

 

[agedhorse]

So staticOverdrive, when I can repair just about any GB Shuttle or Streamliner for $75, to me (and most customers) it appears to be a no brainer to repair, thus making them non-disposable.

Very rarely is it a problem with the class D amp or SMPS, the modules we choose to use were VERY reliable and not suited to throw away products.

 

[static0verdrive]

So staticOverdrive, when I can repair just about any GB Shuttle or Streamliner for $75, to me (and most customers) it appears to be a no brainer to repair, thus making them non-disposable.

Very rarely is it a problem with the class D amp or SMPS, the modules we choose to use were VERY reliable and not suited to throw away products.

I agree 100%. I just rarely like to pay someone to do what I'm trained to do myself Throw my post away where and when it doesn't apply... as I said, it's a LOOSE formula! In any case, as a few have posted, many techs/shops don't believe (or don't want to say) they can fix it, so someone who can't do it themselves can end up in a bit of a bind that way, reminding me of your first post here - Find A Better Tech

Edit: I should add that although I'm quite good at soldering, it takes me WAY too long to diagnose problems half the time. Good thing I do more programming than hardware stuff in my day-to-day.

 

[pcake]

since 1996 (the year i got my first computer), i've heard people talk about electronics as disposable and lighter casing as fragile. i haven't had any electronics die. i retire my computers, phones or laptops/tablets when their technology becomes too outdated, but they're all still working and some still get use. others are given to people who can't afford tech who are still using them today. i've dropped lighter weight electronics only rarely, but i rarely drop anything i can carry that's bigger than a coffee mug. i've read several threads about older amps wearing out, so no amps are forever without rebuilding.

i read this same stuff all the time on camera forums. my husband is currently shooting with an older pentax DSLR that does great pics and is working fine, and while i tend to buy cameras, then sell them after a while, some of the guys who bought my cameras sometimes let me know they're still shooting with them. i'm careful with my cameras, as no matter how strong the build is, the lenses have glass elements that, if jarred, can cause problems with the pics. but so far, so good - with cameras, amps, computers, basses, etc.

 

[Aragorn35016]

I've had the joy of repairing radar equipment manufactured in Arab, AL. Nice stuff!



Aragorn35016 said it well. Surface mount repair is a skill that can be mastered easily enough.

actually I work in Huntsville Al, just live in Arab. Huntsville is a very technology driven town!

 

[AlexanderB]

Snip...

If you want to include things like sound cards, prosumer and consumer electronics, it is usually less expensive to replace because the cost (and scale) of manufacture can be pretty darn cheap. Sure, why spend $75 repairing something than can be bought new for $69. That's not what we have been discussing.

On the contrary, at least that what we HAVE to discuss. In the concept of "disposable", economics has to be the fundamental factor. My point is EXACTLY that there is often a false economy in even trying to repair many kinds of technical equipment sold today, bass amps included.
There is no question it CAN be done, though, given the right training, equipment and documentation is available!

 

[Jeff Scott]

i read this same stuff all the time on camera forums. my husband is currently shooting with an older pentax DSLR that does great pics and is working fine, and while i tend to buy cameras, then sell them after a while, some of the guys who bought my cameras sometimes let me know they're still shooting with them. i'm careful with my cameras, as no matter how strong the build is, the lenses have glass elements that, if jarred, can cause problems with the pics. but so far, so good - with cameras, amps, computers, basses, etc.

I have spent decades making, um, world-class photographs using gear (cameras/lenses/enlargers, etc.) that were many decades older (or, century old technology) than myself. These days I do use a Canon 6D with modern L-series lenses, but I still have cameras, that are perfectly functional, going back to the mid 1910s.

 

[pcake]

sure, mechanical cameras will last pretty much forever, but the issue i was addressing was whether more modern, tech gear could last.

how do you like the 6D? my husband craves the 5D mark 111 but isn't enthused about the weight. he doesn't shoot sports or anything fast moving, so i was thinking the 6D might be a good fit for him. thoughts? me, i currently shoot a sony A6000, so i'm covered for light camera gear

I have spent decades making, um, world-class photographs using gear (cameras/lenses/enlargers, etc.) that were many decades older (or, century old technology) than myself. These days I do use a Canon 6D with modern L-series lenses, but I still have cameras, that are perfectly functional, going back to the mid 1910s.

 

[Jeff Scott]

The 6D is still a fairly substantial feeling camera. Having the FF sensor in a reasonably priced camera is great as now I get the full use of my 17-40/4 lens that was truncated by my old 30D. I use it always it in manual exposure mode, and very rarely use autofocus; I wish Canon would make a "6DMa" for photographers like me, a stripped down version for us "take your time and get it right" kinds of people. I loved using my view cameras over the decades, they truly allow for a lot of control, you get what you want compositionally with the extensive image control they allow for, before firing the shutter. And, they are forward technology compatibly since any of them with a Graflok® back can have a digital back mounted to them, the best of all worlds (for those who don't need fast action, like sports or animal/baby photographers). Heck, even Speed Graphics were used for sports photography!

Well, back yesteryear view cameras were used for every kind of photography.

This is one of my older photographs made with a Wista 45VX and 90/8 Super Angulon on TMX film.

Photograph Copyright © Jeffrey P. Scott 1990 All rights reserved.

 

[agedhorse]

On the contrary, at least that what we HAVE to discuss. In the concept of "disposable", economics has to be the fundamental factor. My point is EXACTLY that there is often a false economy in even trying to repair many kinds of technical equipment sold today, bass amps included.
There is no question it CAN be done, though, given the right training, equipment and documentation is available!

I'm saying that with most reasonable quality bass amps, it can be done economically too. If you choose to buy products based solely on lowest initial cost without regard to quality or serviceability, then that would be your choice and then you can enjoy your non-repairable product until if fails and you can throw it away knowing that you have now won your own argument.

That's not the way I design products, I think it's wasteful and short sighted to both the customer as well as the global ecology. If other think it's ok to support the disposable economy, I suppose that's their choice.

 

[digmeout]

If you thought that was a cheap shot, sorry (sorta, but not much)...and goodbye.

I think this is what he's talking about condescending and snide.

 

[Red Planet]

Haven't you noticed that the price point for disposable products has risen in recent years?

Actually looks like its gone down to me.

 

[Pilgrim]

that isn't 100% correct. He knows more about designing and building them. I know more about torturing, destroying and burning them up. Just ask him.

I LIKE IT!!!!!!!

I think this is what he's talking about condescending and snide.

If he feels like leaving TB because of a single comment that was as moderate as that, I'm not one to try and talk him out of it. I'm not sympathetic to people who decide their feelings are hurt and threaten to leave a forum forever.

 

[groucho]

I don't believe that. I would think they would want to make a long lasting product. There is no money if their product fails either. Folks will go another route. Well made products and good customer service i.e. Genz Benz.

Yeah , I agree with you for the most part. Repairing audio gear is part of my work and I am SMT trained and competent.
I have many boxes at work in the facility and in my studio that have not given me a moments trouble and are over 20 years old
(early SMT some of them - hybrid for sure) The big breakthrough has been heat resistant SMT electrolytic caps!
In the stuff I did (NEVE consoles RTS Systems ALESIS YAMAHA etc) that was the big fail point.
Companies for SURE believe in obsolescence but they know features and performance will drive new purchases
better than lack of reliability. Many modern boxes (small amps, FX units) have LSIC packages that are most of the cost of the
box and if they fail it just doesn't pay to bother. Most cost effective repairs on modern gear involves fatigued / defective solder joints
and "wear items" pots and switches.

 

[fdeck]

Another note about servicing micro heads. As the availability of good local techs dwindles, the beauty of servicing the miniaturized gear will emerge when you have to ship one somewhere. I had to ship a micro head, and it was a few bucks, plus it was easy to pack it in some wadded up newspaper and ship with zero insurance. (I don't bother to insure shipments to reputable business addresses).

In contrast, that "repairable" conventional amp turns into a nightmare if it has to be shipped for service.

Most cost effective repairs on modern gear involves fatigued / defective solder joints
and "wear items" pots and switches.

Indeed, my rule of thumb is that almost all gear failures are mechanical in nature, rather than electronic.