Modern micro amps - disposable?

[Jeff Scott]

Actually looks like its gone down to me.

Sorry, I meant that the price point marker on items for what people are willing to toss out has gone up.

 

[Pocket4]

About the perception, I have an Ampeg PF-350 that I bought reconditioned on the cheap. If it should fail, I wouldn't have so many regrets to dispose of it, if I took the trouble to get a tech to provide a repair estimate. On the other hand, my second hand Genz GBE600 which is near flawless, and didn't cost much more out of pocket, would seem to deserve more investment if a repair is needed.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

I think there are two issues: first, whether or not modern amps are robust enough to last a couple of decades before requiring major maintenance, and second, whether or not in the future having a major repair of such amps would be feasible, either due to the costs of such repairs or the scarcity of proprietary parts. I think we're conflating the two issues a little bit, which I suppose is kind of hard not to do.

I will say this, however. Solid-state as an amp typology has been around for quite a while now. I know this is not really a statistically defensible proposition without actual data, but just for argument's sake: How many people are taking to techs their old Sunn Beta Basses, SWR SM400s, GK 300Bs, Carvin Pro Bass 500s, and Peavey Centuries when they poo the bed? I'm speculating, but I'd say probably very few people. I'd guess that they probably junk 'em and just pick up what is currently available on the market. And some of those, like the Sunn and SWR, and still great sounding amps. But 20 years from now what is going to prompt someone to take their BX500 or MB200 into a tech for a major repair rather than just writing off the unit as totaled and picking up something that will be more contemporary? I'm not being disingenuous or rhetorical with that question. I'd honestly like to know.

 

[Red Planet]

Sorry, I meant that the price point marker on items for what people are willing to toss out has gone up.

Sorry I was thinking in terms of these micro prices are going down.

 

[vickerekes]

Liquidmidnight said "...SWR, and still great sounding amps. But 20 years from now what is going to prompt someone to take their BX500 or MB200 into a tech for a major repair".
My 27lb. SWR Spellbinder Blue (no longer made) is irreplacable - small Class D (tube pre) combo with that SWR sound is well worth the $100 repair.

 

[fdeck]

When I buy an amp, I expect it to be a "durable good," i.e., with a long service life. None of the amps that I've owned, in 35+ years of playing, have ever needed major repair. I've repaired:

* Mechanical damage when an amp fell off a speaker stack, but the amp kept playing
* The dreaded effects loop dirty contacts
* Buzzes from vibrating components
* Dirty pots

None of these would have been affected by surface mount technology.

Now, why am I not still using the first amp that I ever owned? It's probably still in use, but it was huge, and underpowered for my present needs. Since then I've been through a couple amps that I still have but don't use for gigs, because I decided to learn how to design my own speakers, and I splurged on a couple of second hand "micro" heads.

I expect that the micro heads will last for the remainder of my career. The biggest risk is that something new and interesting comes along.

 

[Interceptor]

This is it for me too:

I expect that the micro heads will last for the remainder of my career. The biggest risk is that something new and interesting comes along.

 

[seamonkey]

Truth is new gear, even SMD, just doesn't break as much as yesteryear gear did.

Once in a while a bad batch of SMD something will get out, for example a batch of graphics cards. Then you'll see clever people that fix them by putting them in a toaster oven to re-flow them.

All what people in high tech countries think is disposable gets collected and sent off there it's fixed or reused by people craving technology but can't afford it. They are also not going to have unlimited electricity to run something.

If such a person were confronted with two amps that aren't working, a heavy weight low efficiency amplifier or a light weight high efficiency amp - if they're smart they'll spend the effort on the light weight high efficiency amp. Higher tech may be just as easy to fix and will be much more valuable to them in the short and long term.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Years ago I got an early Carvin BX500, it died, I got a second and a third died out of warrantee so I garaged it as they wanted what I assumed was cost to replace it. About $265 for repair IIRC. So I think they thought it was "disposable" as most here know it was dirty ribbon cables (though 2 of mine blew up) that was an easy fix. But I think now new stuff is coming out so fast and furious I'd just want to get something new and the days of playing one amp for 10 or more years is becoming a thing of the past. And yes I've done that. I still have a 45 yr old Sunn that's great for what it is. And I played a GK, then a SWR, then a Glock for at least 10 yrs each. Now I use a Genz Benz for the last few yrs. Now there's a new amp that looks worth buying every few months, that was never the case before. Right now there a half dozen new amps I'd like to have. Just in the last few months you have Reiner, Subway, Genzler, Minimax, B-amp, Glock and seemingly more every other day. I don't want to use just one amp for a decade anymore, I'd rather have a "stable" to chose from the same as basses.

 

[Jim C]

Then you really need to find a better tech.

Often, it's less expensive to replace the class D power amp section than to repair it, but even that is generally pretty reasonable compared to the cost of the amp. Everything else (on most micro amps) is pretty conventional and easy to repair.

The owner of our local big repair shop (who is authorized, GK, GB, Ampeg, Fender, and I think Mesa) had some interesting comments when I first asked him about this when I bought a MB800 and also a Shuttleamx.

He said that the repair techs that will work hard for a reasonable fee are not usually qualified or fast enough to work on SMT amps which would then relate to a fair repair price to the customer.
The folks that were skilled and trained to do this type of work were unaffordable for MI repair work and had better careers working for defense contractors or on the same exact pieces of gear from big manufacturers that did in house refurbish / repair.

I gather the time consumed with tracking these parts or worse yet, buying from manufacturers also added billable time to a repair job.
His real business is warranty work as well as repair of gear that was expensive or hard to find / replace.

I just don’t see the benefits of repairing something like a LMII considering the sell for $400 or less and the replacement boards can be close to that.
In other words, it can be done but probably not a great investment.

It’s conversations like these that show just how valuable a 5 year warranty really is for the few units that will ultimately fail.

 

[AlexanderB]

The owner of our local big repair shop (who is authorized, GK, GB, Ampeg, Fender, and I think Mesa) had some interesting comments when I first asked him about this when I bought a MB800 and also a Shuttleamx.

He said that the repair techs that will work hard for a reasonable fee are not usually qualified or fast enough to work on SMT amps which would then relate to a fair repair price to the customer.
The folks that were skilled and trained to do this type of work were unaffordable for MI repair work and had better careers working for defense contractors or on the same exact pieces of gear from big manufacturers that did in house refurbish / repair.

I gather the time consumed with tracking these parts or worse yet, buying from manufacturers also added billable time to a repair job.
His real business is warranty work as well as repair of gear that was expensive or hard to find / replace.

I just don’t see the benefits of repairing something like a LMII considering the sell for $400 or less and the replacement boards can be close to that.
In other words, it can be done but probably not a great investment.

It’s conversations like these that show just how valuable a 5 year warranty really is for the few units that will ultimately fail.

Sorry, but it does not matter how many times you, me or someone else say this, as long as a person like agedhorse says they are not disposable, because HE says it.

The company he works for basically stopped making "immortal" (infinitely repairable) amps and are now churning out cheap cookie cutter products.
They have fewer and cheaper components inside, but probably generate higher manufacturer margins than ever.

Out in the real world, things are like you or I describe it. That is not an opinion or argument, it is a fact! My friend is a personal friend with not one or two, but most MI and Pro Audio manufacturers' service managers in Sweden.

 

[Jim C]

They don’t have to be disposable and sorry if you misunderstood me.
I’m saying that many are too expensive to fix as opposed to buying another used one.

Agreed that pro engineers and techs can fix them; just not commercially variable for the masses.
My pals shop has many units that were evaluated for about $45, client given price, and instrument or amp never picked up illustrating that the repair was not a good investment to the owner.

 

[LoDownSinner]

I started doing component level repair about 40 years ago. I've watched several generations of techs drop out of the game because the equipment became 'unrepairable.'

Tubes to transistors.
Transistors to ICs.
ICs to LSI.
LSI to microprocessor controlled (digital).
Digital to SMC.

Each change in technology required specific new skills. If the time, effort or training isn't/wasn't available to master the new skills, then the technology does effectively become unrepairable, or at least not economical to repair. I know that at each stage of the technology transitions I personally replaced quite a few parts unnecessarily due to the learning curve, but luckily nearly all of it was in warranty gear with no additional cost directly to the customer.

 

[agedhorse]

Sorry, but it does not matter how many times you, me or someone else say this, as long as a person like agedhorse says they are not disposable, because HE says it.

The company he works for basically stopped making "immortal" (infinitely repairable) amps and are now churning out cheap cookie cutter products.
They have fewer and cheaper components inside, but probably generate higher manufacturer margins than ever.

Out in the real world, things are like you or I describe it. That is not an opinion or argument, it is a fact! My friend is a personal friend with not one or two, but most MI and Pro Audio manufacturers' service managers in Sweden.

This is not true, Fender's new Rumble series it totally repairable. I don't know why you think otherwise?

Since I am out in the real world actually doing it, and doing it for forum members here, I would suggest that my factual representation of this segment is substantially more than just an opinion.

 

[swamp_bass]

Sorry, but it does not matter how many times you, me or someone else say this, as long as a person like agedhorse says they are not disposable, because HE says it.

The company he works for basically stopped making "immortal" (infinitely repairable) amps and are now churning out cheap cookie cutter products.
They have fewer and cheaper components inside, but probably generate higher manufacturer margins than ever.

Out in the real world, things are like you or I describe it. That is not an opinion or argument, it is a fact! My friend is a personal friend with not one or two, but most MI and Pro Audio manufacturers' service managers in Sweden.

Actually, there are several respected talking heads who spew much rubbish who haven't managed to put me into a hypnotic suggestion of agreeing with them.

Aged Horse speaks from facts, not rhetoric, AND he actually has first hand experience with what he's talking about. That makes a big difference than someone who believes something because he was told by someone else, or has come to the conclusion based on casual observations or one-off experiences. As an Electrical Engineer, I can attest that AH never talks out of his hiney-hole.

So, no: For me, repetition of an opinion does not outweigh a factual argument that makes sense. No matter how many people have that opinion.

 

[dincz]

Truth is new gear, even SMD, just doesn't break as much as yesteryear gear did.

You just inspired a new word - "yestergear"

 

[AlexanderB]

This is not true, Fender's new Rumble series it totally repairable. I don't know why you think otherwise?

Since I am out in the real world actually doing it, and doing it for forum members here, I would suggest that my factual representation of this segment is substantially more than just an opinion.

I know since earlier discussions that you are not always the most attentative listener (reader), and since English is not my first language, I will say this again, trying to be very clear:
Of course it can be done (I have never disputed that) , but in most cases it is not financially sound. If an equipment is not WORTH repairing, it WILL be disposable when it eventually fails.
This becomes especially obvious, given the spare part prices and "fixed" trouble shooting fees many in the business charge. (I mentioned my $50 transformer that Fender Scandinavia wanted $500 for. And it would take THREE MONTHS to get it - not the repair, just the part!)

Just look at the marvellous Ampeg PF 500 heads! People that had two or even three units failing, sent them back to Ampeg (in some cases) and received another, identical one. Please note: Not repaired, but new.
In some cases, people actually noted that the new unit had the same revision number on the PCB. There were not updates or repairs done, just a new, identical amp.
That had been the PERFECT scenario to repair that amp; in-house, by the company's own specialists, tools and documents - and cutting out two additional steps of shipping. Still, Ampeg did not find this financially sound.
So, what about a few years into the future, when the amp has depriciated in value, but the shipping, initial trouble shooting fee + additional bench time + parts still remain or has increased?
They will go in the dumpster. They ALREADY go in the dumpster.

Even the national Swedish Television Broadcast Company (which have their own staff of technicians - albeit not many) were throwing LED monitors away by the dozens, because all of them had a known issue with the power supply, IIRC. The parts were not very expensive, the units were definitely repairable since most of the cost was man hours. Still, it was not financially sound to repair these monitors; Quick deprication, no guarantees on the actual repair or that not other components would fail soon, new models had become available in the market, etc etc.

@swamp_bass. I am an EE, too, and have proven agedhorse factually wrong before.

 

[B-string]

The PF-500 or SVT 7-Pro are not good examples. These have gone through an extensive re-design progression. There is a big difference between repairing a stable design and exchanging during the re-design process.

 

[buldog5151bass]

OK, here's a shot of a board inside a Class D amp. That dowel is there for scale. It's a toothpick. Now let's see how many techs want to try to replace one of those surface-mount components. View attachment 761965

Liquidmidnight said "...SWR, and still great sounding amps. But 20 years from now what is going to prompt someone to take their BX500 or MB200 into a tech for a major repair".
My 27lb. SWR Spellbinder Blue (no longer made) is irreplacable - small Class D (tube pre) combo with that SWR sound is well worth the $100 repair.

A good tech can (and will) do it.

 

[agedhorse]

AlexanderB, you must be mistaken? I am an attentive and especially accurate listener, I reply factually and have given plenty of examples of products that generally can be actually serviced and serviced economically, not just products that I have been associated with. I don't why you seem to think that the equipment is not economically repairable, and why in the face of years of examples where I have done exactly this for forum members, that you continue to argue that it's not possible and then say that you have proven me wrong? I don't think that it's because English is not your first language.

Is the general disrespect that I've been seeing on several TB threads the past few days part of some new years thing?