I’m certain I end up playing modes all the time. But I arrive there by virtue of choices made without ever thinking of modes, so am I truly “using” them ?
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Modes - Application
- Thread starter KenD
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I’m certain I end up playing modes all the time. But I arrive there by virtue of choices made without ever thinking of modes, so am I truly “using” them ?
I'd suggest looking at Putter Smith's Jazz Bass Improvisation book.
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This ties into the thread on playing over extended chords. As a BASSIST, unless you're soloing, just DON'T.
I mean yeah, learn what modes are, but even in an entirely modal tune, you can and should build your lines around the CHORDS underlying the song. At least at the beginner level. There are times I'll maybe walk a modal line, but you still need to hit the right chord tones.
Remember your role as a bassist. Trying to "play modes" as a bassist, unless soloing, or VERY advanced, is running before you walk. My opinion only.
I mean yeah, learn what modes are, but even in an entirely modal tune, you can and should build your lines around the CHORDS underlying the song. At least at the beginner level. There are times I'll maybe walk a modal line, but you still need to hit the right chord tones.
Remember your role as a bassist. Trying to "play modes" as a bassist, unless soloing, or VERY advanced, is running before you walk. My opinion only.
Look for songs that are modal... A classic is So What... But an example in popular music is englishman in New York. It's in E dorian. A very elegant way to use the chords (e minor, a major, b minor) and the melody is all e dorian (d major). Stuff like this helps to understand how to use a concept like a mode musically...
I'm like you, OP. I get it (it = modes), but I see little/no use in daily playing. Yeah, I'm not soloing or creating original music. For me - learn, learn the fingerboard and where the chord tones and diatonic notes are. Yeah, some passing/chromatic tones during movement are OK. IMHO - the subject can be over emphasized in some educational materials.
Modes are best utilized by understanding their unique sounds. Their unique sounds are directly related to their intervals. This isn't achieved by practicing these in a vacuum.
I have taught several classical musicians who want to make the leap to improvisational Jazz how to HEAR Western Music..not just play Western Music. The very first thing that I do with all of them is ask them if they know what a major scale actually sounds like. 10 times out of 10 they grab their respective instruments and play a Major Scale. That's not what a major scale sounds like.
The best way to get the sound of the modes in your head is to play with a drone note. Go to Youtube and fire up a C drone. While the drone is happening in the background...play a C Major scale. Entirely different sound than a stand alone "Do-Re-Me...". Not even in the same Universe.
Then...starting from C using the same drone...play through a C Dorian...not a D Dorian. Entirely different sound than a stand-alone Dorian mode. Then play Phrygian starting from C...etc...etc.
If you're practicing modes without a drone...the only thing you're effectively doing is practicing finger exercises that have very little to do with the actual sound each mode creates. Once you do this for about a month...your recognition with your ear goes through the roof as you are practicing musically and not robotically. You will be able to identify alterations, chords and progressions in a way you never thought you could..and you also will have a significant and enriched change in how you hear music in general. This is its value.
I have taught several classical musicians who want to make the leap to improvisational Jazz how to HEAR Western Music..not just play Western Music. The very first thing that I do with all of them is ask them if they know what a major scale actually sounds like. 10 times out of 10 they grab their respective instruments and play a Major Scale. That's not what a major scale sounds like.
The best way to get the sound of the modes in your head is to play with a drone note. Go to Youtube and fire up a C drone. While the drone is happening in the background...play a C Major scale. Entirely different sound than a stand alone "Do-Re-Me...". Not even in the same Universe.
Then...starting from C using the same drone...play through a C Dorian...not a D Dorian. Entirely different sound than a stand-alone Dorian mode. Then play Phrygian starting from C...etc...etc.
If you're practicing modes without a drone...the only thing you're effectively doing is practicing finger exercises that have very little to do with the actual sound each mode creates. Once you do this for about a month...your recognition with your ear goes through the roof as you are practicing musically and not robotically. You will be able to identify alterations, chords and progressions in a way you never thought you could..and you also will have a significant and enriched change in how you hear music in general. This is its value.
Modes are musical information that are not required to make great music, but as is the case with all subjects...we know what we know or don't know what we don't know. All the right and good answers have been given already. I look at it like sometimes an inch and an 1/8th is easier to understand if I see it as 5/8ths. You can build a home using inches only, but for most (not all), you can build a better home if you have access to 1/8ths...or 1/16ths...etc.
I hate to get heady with music, but musicianship is a subject. Included in that subject is the theory. You do not need to know the theory to display musicianship, even exceptional musicianship. But like all subjects, the more you know it, the greater the result, whatever the endevour is and whatever the natural underlying skill set is to start with. Modes have a unique way of providing information. The modes teach. The more I know, the deeper the subject grows.
I hate to get heady with music, but musicianship is a subject. Included in that subject is the theory. You do not need to know the theory to display musicianship, even exceptional musicianship. But like all subjects, the more you know it, the greater the result, whatever the endevour is and whatever the natural underlying skill set is to start with. Modes have a unique way of providing information. The modes teach. The more I know, the deeper the subject grows.
I have learned to think of modes as colors.
Once you know what blue is, you don't ask yourself "What can I do with blue?"
But when you see something that's blue, you can recognize it, and if you had to make something similar, or add to something that's already there, you begin to see how your shade of blue can fit in.
Like most of music theory, IMO, modes are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Once you know what blue is, you don't ask yourself "What can I do with blue?"
But when you see something that's blue, you can recognize it, and if you had to make something similar, or add to something that's already there, you begin to see how your shade of blue can fit in.
Like most of music theory, IMO, modes are descriptive, not prescriptive.
I knew if I scrolled down far enough someone would have already said what I was thinking!
I’d say so. If I had to paint a room knowing nothing about painting, color matching, type of paint, do I need a primer, should I mask, just give me some paint and a brush and it would surely be painted. I can assure you, send me with a bucket of paint and a brush, it would not be as good an experienced Pro.
That’s not saying you have to know the nomenclature of modes to use them, and and or use them properly. You do have to have the experience of first hearing them, being able to identify them, then develop concepts how to use them effectively.
Three ways you can get to that point. Spend a lot of time hearing the use of modes (on the job training), classroom study (more or less listening to them along with learning the the verbiage), or listening to your work on recordings, all of which I did.
I will say this, from a very early age I could tell the difference between major and minor modes. Both parents and older siblings played multiple instruments. I’m sure that helped.
Check out Rick Beato’s videos on the specific modes where he demonstrates their use for different movies.
But to spin it around…
If you can recognize when the modes are being used by the person who wrote the music, you can understand the piece better. Also, if you know what modes a guitarist (or other musician) might dip into, you can get a better idea of how that will interact with what you are playing….
And finally, you can also use the modes yourself to think about non-chordal tones differently, slipping in stuff that may not be even in the key you are in, but will work well with the chord and melody in question.
All this is a long way of saying that knowledge is a good thing, and if you ever find yourself asking, “Why do I need to know this?” perhaps the question should be, “Why am I resisting something that makes me more knowledgeable?”
Sometimes, the answer to that second question is that someone just needs to ask more questions. Other times, it’s because there are more important things to spend one’s time on…but asking more questions always helps you determine whether that’s also the case!
All that is a long way of saying that questions are good.
I have found that "Modes" are useful to me only in a very specific set of circumstances:
But for the specific situation that a guitarist is trying to teach me a new song that he just wrote yesterday? Modes are very useful, for understanding what the guitarist is trying to tell me. It's helpful to understand that kind of guitar-talk, when there isn't a more helpful alternative (like sheet music, or being able to listen to a recording of the song).
And final comment: To the extent that bass is a guitar-family instrument, and a lot of bass teachers are also guitar teachers, I can definitely understand why "modes" are starting to creep into bass education as well.
- I don't know the song. (If I know the song, I don't need "modes" because I already know what to play.)
- There is no sheet music. (If there is sheet music, I don't need "modes" because the sheet music tell me what to play.)
- There is no recording of the song. (If there is a recording, I don't need "modes" because I can listen to the song and hear how it goes.)
- The person trying to teach me the song on the spot (with no rehearsal, sheet music, or recording), is a guitarist who loves the concept of "modes."
But for the specific situation that a guitarist is trying to teach me a new song that he just wrote yesterday? Modes are very useful, for understanding what the guitarist is trying to tell me. It's helpful to understand that kind of guitar-talk, when there isn't a more helpful alternative (like sheet music, or being able to listen to a recording of the song).
And final comment: To the extent that bass is a guitar-family instrument, and a lot of bass teachers are also guitar teachers, I can definitely understand why "modes" are starting to creep into bass education as well.
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Awesome! I’ve not done that, but I’m going to run with it. Thanks!
Just my two cents - I believe a knowledge of theory cannot hurt, and can only help. Imagine a completely hypothetical example of a band in a studio trying to record an album. Each member of the band is from a different country, speaks a different language, and does not speak a common language (for the sake of this example, English). They have never played together before.
If they are all experienced musicians, they might still get the recording done, but not without challenges and pain due to lack of communication.
If all band members speak English, even though they've never played together previously, recording will go much smoother than if they don't.
Music theory is that common language. It is "English" in this example.
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Modes can be like a recipe for what notes to play over a particular chord. Music gains power from ambiguity, so knowing multiple modes to play over a single chord can create that effect. For instance, on a Cmaj7, you could play either Ionian or Lydian. The 4th (or 11th) isn't defined in the chord so that note is up for some twisting. Modal knowledge is also good for figuring out keys of songs quickly, combined with cadence knowledge, you can pretty much predict chord changes. I think that on a deeper level modes will let you realize that all scales are just patterns of notes between an octave that sound less or more interesting to the ear. The diatonic set (ionian, dorian etc) has a beautiful symmetry to it.
So first, theory is not a rule book, more of a guide book. We use theory to help dissect and understand something we heard in a song. Theory can help us to recreate that feeling.
I felt much the same as OP when I was first introduced to modes some 40 years ago. And honestly, my view hasn't changed drastically since then.
For me, modes are most useful when developing solo lines/melodies. They can help a soloist/composer get out of a rut and create interest. They can be an inspiration for how to create an interesting feel/mood for a song or progression. While I have a general understanding of modes, other than Dorian, I don't remember which mode is which and it hasn't affected my musical life one little bit. Major, minor and pentatonic scales get me by just fine.
Knowing which mode is which can be useful when conversing with others who know them and they are essentially a shortcut for saying "For your solo, use the notes from the key of C, but anchor on D" It's a bit quicker to say "Use the Dorian scale for the key of C" - assuming somebody else knows what that meas.
Yes, the more you understand modes the more useful they can be. Each modes induces some specific mood and being able to hear that mood, will help you identify the mode that is being applied, possibly making it easier to transcribe or replicate something.
It sounds like you already understand the composition of modes - it's up to you to figure out how you want to use them - or not.
I felt much the same as OP when I was first introduced to modes some 40 years ago. And honestly, my view hasn't changed drastically since then.
For me, modes are most useful when developing solo lines/melodies. They can help a soloist/composer get out of a rut and create interest. They can be an inspiration for how to create an interesting feel/mood for a song or progression. While I have a general understanding of modes, other than Dorian, I don't remember which mode is which and it hasn't affected my musical life one little bit. Major, minor and pentatonic scales get me by just fine.
Knowing which mode is which can be useful when conversing with others who know them and they are essentially a shortcut for saying "For your solo, use the notes from the key of C, but anchor on D" It's a bit quicker to say "Use the Dorian scale for the key of C" - assuming somebody else knows what that meas.
Yes, the more you understand modes the more useful they can be. Each modes induces some specific mood and being able to hear that mood, will help you identify the mode that is being applied, possibly making it easier to transcribe or replicate something.
It sounds like you already understand the composition of modes - it's up to you to figure out how you want to use them - or not.
With an "approach note", you play a note out of the scale to create tension on your way to a note that's in it. Legit technique, but not what modes are about. Modes are about using the notes that characterize them to create a mood or feel that pervades the music.
Here are a couple great videos by Rick Beato where Rick does a better job of describing this than I could.
In this video he focuses on the Aeolian mode which is like a minor scale with a b6. In his description, the b6 in Aeolian creates a sense of sadness and longing He demos music that uses that b6 all over the place and right out front.
In this video he focuses on Mixolydian, which is a major scale with a minor 7th. He calls it "the Sound of Rock" and points out some Beatles music that features it prominently, like "Norwegian Wood" and "I Feel Fine". I think it's the sound of jazz, as the M7 chord is very prevalent there.
...and if you like Sting even a little, this one is a really interesting eexploration of how Sting uses modes, including "Fortress Around Your Heart" which bounces around across a bunch of them.
You mentioned above that you probably are using modal concepts in your music but you don't know or care what other people call them (or something like that). You wouldn't be alone - loads of musicians learn music by ear. Some really famous ones even.
I suppose that if you eat crescent-shaped yellow fruits all your life and you never learn that they are called bananas, they won't taste any different to you. But, if you ever want to ask somebody else for one, it does help to know the word.
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Except when you leave the world of western music…but that’s another discussion for another day.
Let’s just assume everyone is working with a western approach to music for this discussion’s purposes.
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