LOL, no. But thanks, 9/8ths would be correct. I actually meant something else entirely and my brain cross-pollinated 2 ideas.
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- Thread starter KenD
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LOL, no. But thanks, 9/8ths would be correct. I actually meant something else entirely and my brain cross-pollinated 2 ideas.
This discussion puts me in mind of a comment from Pat Martino when he was being asked to analyze a piece he had played. He said, paraphrasing, "That's how I describe after the fact what I did but it's not what I'm thinking when I do it."
In music school I was taught that musical practice always precedes music theory, except for at two specific moments in history.
First post nails it...after 38 years of playing I have yet to ever find myself in a situation where I am thinking "what mode do I play here ?", and frankly I am confused by the emphasis put on them by a lot of the people I know. It's also interesting that it's the players who are largely self taught who I always catch talking about modes, the guys I know who have more formal training never talk about them, or hardly ever. Thinking in terms of the chord being played is just a far more straightforward way of thinking about music to me. If someone tells me they are playing an F7#11, I know that I am safe playing a B natural in a solo or bass line.
Your first point here is good, but really thats just having the ability to play a scale or chord starting on some other chord or non-chord tone in the home key.
Second point I had no clue what you are talking about and had to google it...Maybe I heard of Parallel modes in a music theory class in the past, but reading the definitions that are out there for that, it sounds like an overly complicated way of saying "add chromatic passing tones in your solo".
If I'm thinking while I'm playing I'm probably messing up. I think in terms of chords sure. I like to know the that next is an Am, followed by a Dm, etc, but what I personally want to play with that is a product of muscle memory and ear training that developed after a jazz bassist just shy of his bachelors taught me the 7 modes of the major scale. What I choose to play is often a result of what I hear. When a musician starts playing something I've never heard before and I come in immediately with something that fits.. it's not something I was thinking about. More listening and feeling than thinking.
I think about this stuff while I'm practicing and learning and writing music. In an improv session it's more like a reflex. If anything learning my modes made learning things by ear easier. I know how to react to certain sounds. I'm mostly self taught.. but there's a reason with the limited time that musician had he sent me down that path. I may have had a guitar and not a bass in my hands at the time too. He also knew my interests were in making my own music.
"If it sounds good you ain't practicing.. you're playing."
I choose to see at least some of the depth beyond the single passing note but I'm not thinking about it while I'm doing it nor can I always pinpoint what mode I might be pulling a passing note from. I'm just concentrating on what I hear and letting years of practice respond accordingly.
I also tend to use them for more than just a chromatic sequence. I also play more than just bass even though it has been my instrument of choice for most of a decade. I also mostly enjoy the creative aspect of music, as opposed to the joy of playing music that already exists.
Personally I would never discourage anyone from spending some time experimenting with modes.. modal shifts, discovering their relations to chords and scales. Even the most advanced of us never stop learning and if you really stop and think about how many scales there are, each with their own modes and what chords apply to those modes, and maybe even dig in break them down to intervals.. at least from my perspective.. it's like infinite potential.
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So ya the notes are the same C Major/Ionian and F Lydian. You could think of that as go nuts on a C Major scale.
I always thought it had to with fingering patterns. While playing it’s easier to think F Lydian is “that Lydian pattern starting here” than thinking of a C Major scale starting on F.
You learn and practice Major scale patterns or Lydian scale patterns or other modal “patterns”.
I always thought it had to with fingering patterns. While playing it’s easier to think F Lydian is “that Lydian pattern starting here” than thinking of a C Major scale starting on F.
You learn and practice Major scale patterns or Lydian scale patterns or other modal “patterns”.
Dont get me wrong, I had teachers go over them...First guy I studied with had me spend a fair amount of time on them if I am remembering correctly, but I also did not advance very much as a player under him. It was only a decade or two later under different teachers with a strong jazz background (decades of playing and teaching) that I started making headway as a decent player, neither of those guys really spent much time going over modes, they mentioned them, but not with any great emphasis..
I hope I am not sounding overly opinionated here either, I just think everyone discovers what works best for them and what does not, and we end up disregarding what doesn't end up working for us. Using modes as a manner of learning how to play and improvise and the route memorization that goes along with that way of learning just never worked well for me. Thats why I like the chordal approach to improvising because to me it is far less ambiguous and more logical and if someone is struggling with learning how to use modes, I like to encourage them to look at that method.
I also said this before...I look at modes the same way I look at all those biochemical pathways I had to study and memorize in college and was told how important they are to know off the top of your head. In 20 years of doing biochemistry I've never once had to recall one of those pathways from memory.
I’ve found modes are most useful when you’re improvising and soloing, or playing in genres where there’s a lot of improvising and soloing such as jazz, and to a lesser extent, metal and some other sub genres of rock.
I find non-diatonic or chromatic harmonic theory to be more useful for music analysis, composition, and pretty much everything else.
IMO thinking in terms of modes and scales are actually two different things. Most of the confusion I see people encountering comes from them trying to tie the two systems together. So I’d suggest thinking in modes when it makes the most sense to do so, and thinking in modern scales when it makes sense to think in scales.
I find non-diatonic or chromatic harmonic theory to be more useful for music analysis, composition, and pretty much everything else.
IMO thinking in terms of modes and scales are actually two different things. Most of the confusion I see people encountering comes from them trying to tie the two systems together. So I’d suggest thinking in modes when it makes the most sense to do so, and thinking in modern scales when it makes sense to think in scales.
It's like getting that 64 color crayon box after having only the 16 color. 
It's like getting that 64 color crayon box after having only the 16 color.
Yet, some people only play the blues.
Sorry...I...uh...nevermind...
In my playing I use modes when I am writing a bass line and it needs a little more something to bring it to life.
knowing where to go is half the battle, those shapes and the notes there in have helped me improve my bass line creativity even while flying by the seat of my pants (improv).
knowing where to go is half the battle, those shapes and the notes there in have helped me improve my bass line creativity even while flying by the seat of my pants (improv).
Benjamin Earl
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I use the modes for narrowing down melodic content for more potent lines, communicating with other musicians, and learning to play the whole fretboard.
Don't play every note, it may sound like crap
Modes are a choice you make to narrow down the notes to create a "sound". Many people have previously said that modes are like "color" or "flavor". I agree, this is a good way to think about it. If you mix together every color, then you will get a grayish brown color, which may look like crap. If you mix every spice and ingredient together, then your cooking will likely taste like crap. Sure you can play chromatically and use any note as a passing tone or choose an approach note that is not in any per-determined scale. However, if you use every note without any thought or purpose, then it may sound like crap. Modes are scales used to consciously and purposefully narrow down your note choices, in order to portray a more focused melody.
Communication
You may use modes naturally by ear, but it is helpful to know what you are playing, especially if you need to communicate it quickly to someone. You can say Lydian to another musician and they should know 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7. It is faster than saying "major, major 7, with a sharp #4".
Fretboard Visualization
Lastly, I used modes as a beginner to learn the fretboard. I 100% disagree with anyone who says modes are over emphasized. Modes can be really eye opening for someone who doesn't know how to break out of the scale "box". If you can confidently rip a "box scale" for C major, A minor, and G dominant from the root to the octave starting on the E-string and the A-string (see graphic below); then by combining all three scales, you can play almost every note on the fretboard inside and outside the "box" scales you already know. All you need to understand is fact that each of these scales have the same key signature. Every note is the same, just starting in a different place. Learning the modes expands this practice to all seven scale tones, which will cover the whole fretboard a little more completely. This is not the only way to learn this information, but it is absolutely a tried and true tested method to learning to play the whole fretboard.
Don't play every note, it may sound like crap
Modes are a choice you make to narrow down the notes to create a "sound". Many people have previously said that modes are like "color" or "flavor". I agree, this is a good way to think about it. If you mix together every color, then you will get a grayish brown color, which may look like crap. If you mix every spice and ingredient together, then your cooking will likely taste like crap. Sure you can play chromatically and use any note as a passing tone or choose an approach note that is not in any per-determined scale. However, if you use every note without any thought or purpose, then it may sound like crap. Modes are scales used to consciously and purposefully narrow down your note choices, in order to portray a more focused melody.
Communication
You may use modes naturally by ear, but it is helpful to know what you are playing, especially if you need to communicate it quickly to someone. You can say Lydian to another musician and they should know 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7. It is faster than saying "major, major 7, with a sharp #4".
Fretboard Visualization
Lastly, I used modes as a beginner to learn the fretboard. I 100% disagree with anyone who says modes are over emphasized. Modes can be really eye opening for someone who doesn't know how to break out of the scale "box". If you can confidently rip a "box scale" for C major, A minor, and G dominant from the root to the octave starting on the E-string and the A-string (see graphic below); then by combining all three scales, you can play almost every note on the fretboard inside and outside the "box" scales you already know. All you need to understand is fact that each of these scales have the same key signature. Every note is the same, just starting in a different place. Learning the modes expands this practice to all seven scale tones, which will cover the whole fretboard a little more completely. This is not the only way to learn this information, but it is absolutely a tried and true tested method to learning to play the whole fretboard.
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Please forgive me if I at all came off as condescending or defensive.
I could talk about this subject all day and my perspective is not quite that of your average lifelong educated musician.. of which.. I have some really interesting stories to tell that I feel like might open ones mind to modes being just as important as any of the other building blocks that make music. I apologize if I was being preachy.. but coming from a completely different walk of life it seems, I have a different take without necessarily disagreeing with what you have to say.. more so encouraging any one and everyone with a passion for music not to talk themselves into neglecting any of the basic building blocks that make up what we call music. That includes modes, next to scales, notes, chords, rhythmic values.
Where I'm a deer in a spotlight if you put a piece of sheet music in front of me, barely able to keep up with half notes and fall back on my years of playing and relying on my mental and physical retention of theory, I've met enough life long classically trained musicians who are that deer in a spot light the moment you ask them to get creative and I find myself wondering how much time they put into piecing all these building blocks together to create something they feel before giving up and resorting to pulling back out the sheet music and settling for top 40 gigs they probably find easy and I hope they enjoy doing.
I've met self taught musicians who you don't have to talk to.. just start playing anything. Anything.. literally anything. They'll have a valid response and if not for big egos and drama we'd probably be touring the jamband circuit.. or would have before covid. One of those dudes couldn't even talk basic theory beyond what key he was in or what chord and whether it was major or minor. His ears knew it though.. his fingers knew it. He has no clue how well he understands modes.
That's not to discredit classically trained musicians or sound superior, they tend to play circles around me.. I just think there are pros and cons to being either or and part of the fight is to stay open minded.
To bring the point back to modes.. they're just one group of building blocks that make up what we hear in every piece of music ever written or played. Like I could probably stand to benefit from revisiting reading, even if I may never actually perform a song I haven't taken part in writing, advancing in musicianship sometimes takes revisiting something that seemed either basic, or not worth the effort at the time. Sometimes a lightbulb clicks on that didn't before.
Everything about what we do takes effort and repetition and none of it came from giving up on something that at one point felt uncomfortable. We all find our own ways of doing things if we aren't taught something better, like you prefer to think of a passing note in a chromatic fill. You are not incorrect in that statement. I'm not incorrect in calling it a modal shift though.
As someone who kind of took off and was a different musician almost immediately after being introduced to the modes of the major scale, I can't unsee the fact that they are there regardless of whether I'm playing an arpeggio or just a riff, or even a barred chord if I have a guitar in my hands. I think they're worth revisiting from time to time.. just like any other aspect of music one might one to go back to the basics and refresh on. We do it for those lightbulb moments that may have eluded us the first or second time around.
I didn't even know that jazz bassist was teaching me the 7 modes of the major scale until years later.. his story was pretty tragic honestly and I wish I could find him.
My apologies to everyone in this thread for writing a book on the subject largely based on my own experiences rather than theoretical brevity.. I love this subject though. Want to talk modes? I'M DOWN. I have some experience.
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Couldn't agree more on how learning and playing modes can increase fretboard familiarity. I'm a relative beginner (about five years on bass) and I play through all the major and melodic minor modes in all keys every day, starting at C on the 8th and moving through the cycle of fourths (some people hate that way of saying it but I learned it from a Jim Stinnett vid so haters be quiet). For me, it's a perfect 25 minute beginning to any practice session.
Don't know anything about modes. I do know that when I formed a band that did only originals (that my brothers and I wrote) we pulled in a guitar player that appeared to be well-schooled and much more knowledgable than we were (we were self-taught). He played solos that always sounded odd or not along the lines of what I would have played (I was the lead guitarist in the band until this guy came on board). He was very, very good. His solos were awesome. He tried to explain to me what he was using as the foundation of his soloing. Modes, odd-ball scales and musical references that meant nothing to me. If nothing, I learned that there is a lot to be said for schooling and knowledge. With that said, I still play the same old blues/rock riffs and thump my way through the bass lines. Ignorance is bliss? Life is good. Keep on rockin’.
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