You’d actually say, “Use D Dorian”…
At any rate, for those who forget, the modes in typical order are:
Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Modes - Application
- Thread starter KenD
- Start date
- Status
You’d actually say, “Use D Dorian”…
At any rate, for those who forget, the modes in typical order are:
Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian
Small corrections:
Aeolian mode IS the natural minor scale. Compared to the major scale, the third is flattened a half step, the sixth is flattened a half step, and the seventh is flattened a half step.
The thing about a minor 6th interval is that if you play a minor chord, it could be sad…with a minor 7th chord, it’s not really all that sad (it’s fake sad - like the politicians get)…but if you play a minor 6th chord, that’s REALLY sad.
It's a minor scale with a b2 and a b5. I was always taught in modal music your focus is on where the semitones are located within the scale.
Last edited:
And- this right here- is one of the many confusing things about "talking modes". In my mind, when you say "D Dorian", I have to think:
"Do you mean the Dorian of the key of D or the Dorian scale that starts on D (key of C)?"
In my mind, that scale (the white keys starting on D) is the C Dorian. I'm not saying you're right or wrong - I never cared enough dive that deep and whatever communication works between the people talking is fine. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot of confusion when even just talking modes. If you were to yell out "D Dorian" in a jam, I wouldn't easily know what you're looking for. Sure I'd figure it out by ear, but also would have done that without direction. If we worked together a lot, sure, I'd understand your direction the next time, but it's simply not a universal application. Even if I'm completely wrong, it's how I think. Probably not alone.
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. The b5 is the unique sound in the locrian, The Phrygian also has a flat 2.
The b4 is found in the Super Locrian which is the 7th degree of the Melodic Minor.
Thats all theory.
Knowing when and where to use the Locrian is the important part.
Very true. I had edited my post above to read b5 before you posted this. That's what I get for trying to type and talk on the phone at the same time!
If I say “E minor”, do you know what I’m saying?
It’s literally the exact same practice.
“Major” is just the Ionian mode. It wouldn’t make any sense to refer to it when describing which other mode you’re playing.
What DOESN’T make the Locrian unique? Am I right?
Hey, be sure to try the lobster, and don’t forget to tip your server. You’ve been great!
Well phrased - that does make sense.
I guess it's just the way that I relate modes to the "parent" key that causes my confusion.
Thanks for the clarity.
Yeah, a LOT of people do that…and I think it makes the concept of the modes seem less useful than it is.
If people thought of modes as their own unique scales, which they are, then we’d see a lot more interesting music that makes use of them.
In a way, the easy translation between the major scale and the various modes has the effect of stifling their use.
Frankly, I’d love to hear an album that explored all the modes, with songs that were specifically written with each mode in mind.
It's a subject we can talk about for ever and most will explain it better than me but I'll try...
Mods are scales of their own different from major and minor.
Simplest way to look at modes is that they are a "permition" to incorporate intervals that are not in the major or minor scale.
Intervals change the feel of the tune.
When you have a major chord all intervals from major mods can be used,same fo minor.
For example in C major you can use Bb note.
In A minor you can use A# and Eb.
Mods are scales of their own different from major and minor.
Simplest way to look at modes is that they are a "permition" to incorporate intervals that are not in the major or minor scale.
Intervals change the feel of the tune.
When you have a major chord all intervals from major mods can be used,same fo minor.
For example in C major you can use Bb note.
In A minor you can use A# and Eb.
The idea, to me, is that over the same chord you got 2-3 choices of mode to use on your solo that have the same chord tones and different non-chord tones. It's just the flavor of scale you are going to use over that chord, that doesn't sound "out." In pure Blues/rock you don't usually have to change the scale over each chord you are playing, you just play the pentatonic in the key, or whatever. When you change modes a bunch over the chords, you make stuff sound jazzy and complex, and that is cool, and you can take that as far as you want to, endlessly.
There's also a lot of rock and pop songs where the "key" of the song is a mode, like phrygian or mixolydian, and everybody playing pitched notes in the band is going to have to be generally aware of that.
Also, most modern four-chord songs have a chord that is non-diatonic in the loop, and sometimes it's useful to think about overlapping modes when writing melodies or solos over these four-chord loops. Like a song in C Major might have a Bb major chord in the loop, so you might think of the song as being in C Ionian and C Mixolydian simultaneously, maybe you think of it as morphing between those two modes at different times.
Short answer, modes are a way to think about how the melody relates to the chords. Apply this concept as useful in your own musical life.
There's also a lot of rock and pop songs where the "key" of the song is a mode, like phrygian or mixolydian, and everybody playing pitched notes in the band is going to have to be generally aware of that.
Also, most modern four-chord songs have a chord that is non-diatonic in the loop, and sometimes it's useful to think about overlapping modes when writing melodies or solos over these four-chord loops. Like a song in C Major might have a Bb major chord in the loop, so you might think of the song as being in C Ionian and C Mixolydian simultaneously, maybe you think of it as morphing between those two modes at different times.
Short answer, modes are a way to think about how the melody relates to the chords. Apply this concept as useful in your own musical life.
The only mode I use on a daily basis is the commode.
To me, arpeggios are the "bassics" (pun intended) that apply most anywhere.
Then, you get pentatonic, which adds a note or two. A bit more to work with, but still "bassic". Even here though, you can run into trouble since you are getting away from chord tones, and the song-writer may have thrown a "twist" in the chord sequence.
Modes give you all 7 notes to work with, but can conflict with others in the band, since a lot of songs have their own nuances that conflict with a strict modal approach. Great for soloing, though, so you don't sound like you are just going through drills.
Back when I was doing the Church folk thing, I would figure-out what mode each chord was (ionian, dorian, etc.), and just "jam". More recently, I learned this approach is called "Nashville Numbers". If not familiar with Nashville Numbers, I suggest a quick Google search.
Another way to look at modes is the sound they give to the whole song. A favorite example of mine is Blast! by Marcus Miller. If I recall, the mode (scale) used is a modified Dorian, with flattened 2nd to give it a Spanish feel. The Bass Wizard explains the mode used in his paid video, but his free vid below lets you hear it.
Then, you get pentatonic, which adds a note or two. A bit more to work with, but still "bassic". Even here though, you can run into trouble since you are getting away from chord tones, and the song-writer may have thrown a "twist" in the chord sequence.
Modes give you all 7 notes to work with, but can conflict with others in the band, since a lot of songs have their own nuances that conflict with a strict modal approach. Great for soloing, though, so you don't sound like you are just going through drills.
Back when I was doing the Church folk thing, I would figure-out what mode each chord was (ionian, dorian, etc.), and just "jam". More recently, I learned this approach is called "Nashville Numbers". If not familiar with Nashville Numbers, I suggest a quick Google search.
Another way to look at modes is the sound they give to the whole song. A favorite example of mine is Blast! by Marcus Miller. If I recall, the mode (scale) used is a modified Dorian, with flattened 2nd to give it a Spanish feel. The Bass Wizard explains the mode used in his paid video, but his free vid below lets you hear it.
Last edited:
All of the other commonly used modes generate a major or minor triad on scale degrees 1-3-5. The Locrian generates a diminished triad.
This is one of the reasons it was considered a "theoretical" mode in pre-tonal times (medieval/renaissance theory) and not used, whereas the other six were.
GT
Modes are crazy things that are modes, but they're also scales, but they're also just parts of scales or a scale starting from another position. We all get that.
Major scale - Major minor minor maj maj minor b5b7
Or. 1 Ionian relates to a major chord, 2 Dorian relates to a minor chord, 3 Phrygian to a minor cord, 4 Lydian is maj7, 5 Mixolydian is Dominant, 6 Aeolian is minor7, 7 Locrian is half diminished aka b5b7.
While we like to stick to chord tones often with bass.. scale tones as passing notes that fit the above aren't necessarily a horrible bet afaic. If someone calls out "2 5 1 in C" you know it's going to be Dm or Dm7, G7, and Cmaj7. The chord tones we use are intervals within the modes of the major scale. 2 5 1 can also be "II Dorian, V Mixolydian, I Ionian" or.. if you wanted to spice it up you could use a mode from another scale or something else that fits the relative chord.. i.e. pentatonic major in place of the one.
Chords, scales, modes are all relative and leave room for variation. You could spend a life time discovering new ways to put them together, never be the first to have done so but still be able to call it your own.
One of my favorite practical uses of "Modes" is actually mixing modes from two completely different scales to make some passages more interesting.
If I'm playing a pentatonic minor or blues scale, in Am, that's only a few notes shy of A natural minor.. A natural minor is not far off from A harmonic minor. It's a safe bet that I can intermingle notes from all three of these scales, or the first mode of these scales to good effect.
In practice.. it ends up being a fill with a chromatic feel, or one run might sound like one scale and the next sound like a different but not out of place. What I'm really doing is pulling notes from various modes from various scales to create something that sounds a little more interesting than just sticking to the lines on the road.
It's not hard for me to compare this to say a typical one or two chord Funk rhythm on a guitar. The first reaction is "one chord, how boring" but.. with just some movement from your pinky and middle finger, it turns out there are many voicings to any given chord that might fit well within the context of a song. By the time you've spiced it up with some gaps and spaces in the rhythm and figured out all the various voicings of that chord that sound good.. at least to me, it's suddenly sounds much much more interesting and becomes lot more fun to play.
I mean part of why we learn them is to recognize how most music we listen to is pieced together from familiar shapes/patterns/chord progressions. If you play and listen to the modes enough you will start to hear them in every song you listen to. You get to a point where you can react to those sounds immediately.. and thus you've begun to learn how to improvise on your instrument.
Improvisation is the other part of why we learn them, and the one that stuck with me the most, is so we can take them can get creative with them and add flavor to your own musical creations. Each chord you play has its default mode in relation to the key of a song, OR.. each chord fits with multiple modes from multiple scales. Figuring out what works and doesn't there can be fun, and also sometimes results in something I like to call composition.
Don't be afraid of experimenting with these guys. I mean.. I can't read sheet music and I'm jealous of those of you that can, but scales, chords, modes intervals and rhythmic values.. these are the keys of creativity and why I personally love music. Don't be afraid to sit down and explore them and sound bad doing so as you learn what sounds good. And remember, the audible aspect will probably make more sense than the written aspect depending on how developed your ear is.
Major scale - Major minor minor maj maj minor b5b7
Or. 1 Ionian relates to a major chord, 2 Dorian relates to a minor chord, 3 Phrygian to a minor cord, 4 Lydian is maj7, 5 Mixolydian is Dominant, 6 Aeolian is minor7, 7 Locrian is half diminished aka b5b7.
While we like to stick to chord tones often with bass.. scale tones as passing notes that fit the above aren't necessarily a horrible bet afaic. If someone calls out "2 5 1 in C" you know it's going to be Dm or Dm7, G7, and Cmaj7. The chord tones we use are intervals within the modes of the major scale. 2 5 1 can also be "II Dorian, V Mixolydian, I Ionian" or.. if you wanted to spice it up you could use a mode from another scale or something else that fits the relative chord.. i.e. pentatonic major in place of the one.
Chords, scales, modes are all relative and leave room for variation. You could spend a life time discovering new ways to put them together, never be the first to have done so but still be able to call it your own.
One of my favorite practical uses of "Modes" is actually mixing modes from two completely different scales to make some passages more interesting.
If I'm playing a pentatonic minor or blues scale, in Am, that's only a few notes shy of A natural minor.. A natural minor is not far off from A harmonic minor. It's a safe bet that I can intermingle notes from all three of these scales, or the first mode of these scales to good effect.
In practice.. it ends up being a fill with a chromatic feel, or one run might sound like one scale and the next sound like a different but not out of place. What I'm really doing is pulling notes from various modes from various scales to create something that sounds a little more interesting than just sticking to the lines on the road.
It's not hard for me to compare this to say a typical one or two chord Funk rhythm on a guitar. The first reaction is "one chord, how boring" but.. with just some movement from your pinky and middle finger, it turns out there are many voicings to any given chord that might fit well within the context of a song. By the time you've spiced it up with some gaps and spaces in the rhythm and figured out all the various voicings of that chord that sound good.. at least to me, it's suddenly sounds much much more interesting and becomes lot more fun to play.
I mean part of why we learn them is to recognize how most music we listen to is pieced together from familiar shapes/patterns/chord progressions. If you play and listen to the modes enough you will start to hear them in every song you listen to. You get to a point where you can react to those sounds immediately.. and thus you've begun to learn how to improvise on your instrument.
Improvisation is the other part of why we learn them, and the one that stuck with me the most, is so we can take them can get creative with them and add flavor to your own musical creations. Each chord you play has its default mode in relation to the key of a song, OR.. each chord fits with multiple modes from multiple scales. Figuring out what works and doesn't there can be fun, and also sometimes results in something I like to call composition.
Don't be afraid of experimenting with these guys. I mean.. I can't read sheet music and I'm jealous of those of you that can, but scales, chords, modes intervals and rhythmic values.. these are the keys of creativity and why I personally love music. Don't be afraid to sit down and explore them and sound bad doing so as you learn what sounds good. And remember, the audible aspect will probably make more sense than the written aspect depending on how developed your ear is.
Last edited:
- Status
