Modes - Application

[Robscott]

I think my point is being missed here. I already have all that tonal information without ever knowing about modes. I know what major, minor, maj7, dom7, diminished, augmented, flat 5, etc. sound like. I know my scales and chords. It seems that modes give me the same information, just in a different format.

100% correct, you are one of those people who don't need that knowledge

 

[Robscott]

But what you’re missing is that if you want certain moods for music, you use different modes to achieve it.

For example, in movies when they want to make something heroic, they’ll use a different mode than when they want to make something sad or scary.

Major and minor keys don’t give you the full emotional range of composing in a different mode.

Yeah but I think OP is saying he can play all that stuff without stopping to think what mode he's in, that's all. I'm in the same world as OP

 

[Matty Koff]

Don't know anything about modes. I do know that when I formed a band that did only originals (that my brothers and I wrote) we pulled in a guitar player that appeared to be well-schooled and much more knowledgable than we were (we were self-taught). He played solos that always sounded odd or not along the lines of what I would have played (I was the lead guitarist in the band until this guy came on board). He was very, very good. His solos were awesome. He tried to explain to me what he was using as the foundation of his soloing. Modes, odd-ball scales and musical references that meant nothing to me. If nothing, I learned that there is a lot to be said for schooling and knowledge. With that said, I still play the same old blues/rock riffs and thump my way through the bass lines. Ignorance is bliss? Life is good. Keep on rockin’.

If you ever want to revisit them, and happen to have the opportunity to have that conversation with someone again.. ask if they'll write those modes down in tab.

Your blues riffs are modes of the blues scale and such. I can't promise they'll help you.. if you even glanced at my contributions to this thread I'm sure it's obvious I think they're worth consideration.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

I understand your points but let me follow up:

1. Agreed but if I know the notes in my home scale/key and I know fluently all the note positions on my fingerboard, why would I need even to know what a mode is?
2. Yes but doesn't the use of approach and passing notes accomplish much of this without knowing about modes?

Not trying to be argumentative, just curious and asking.

Not all music is written in Major/Minor: a lot of Flamenco is in Phrygian, & Miles Davis’ “So What” is in Dorian. It’s easier to know the mode than to transcribe to your home key, especially if you’re going to improv.

 

[KenD]

I think I understand the point that is being made here in various ways. If one wants to impart a particular "flavour" to a composition or arrangement (not just to a measure or two) one could use the appropriate mode. Thus specifying F Lydian would imply a #4 throughout the piece and impart that tonal flavour. That would very seldom happen in the genres I mostly play but I can see how it would apply in others.
Many thanks for all the input - it helped greatly.

 

[StatesideRambler]

Learning to use modes opens musical doors. If you don’t think studying/practicing modes is worthwhile then I say that you’re imposing your own limits on what you can do in music. If you’re content with that then carry on.

An example of the usefulness of modes that most people easily can identify with is on guitar: playing a Dorian mode along with many of Carlos Santana’s first several dozen recorded songs. Playing the Dorian mode in its home position gives economy of motion (i.e. damned little position shifting), letting the music sound smooth and graceful. The Dorian mode complements Santana’s composition and style.

 

[arepa_funk]

From a funk and groove-based music perspective, modes are essential to vamps and as a TBer mentioned above (apologies for not catching your handle!) are invaluable to tension and release moments due to the location of semitones, depending on what mode you're in.

E.g., Dorian has major sixth instead of minor sixth. It's a semitone away from the minor seventh in the scale. Hammer-ons or pull-offs to/from those two scale degrees are fantastic in vamps. And if you are in the third inversion with the seventh in the bass, there are even more options in the low end. James Brown's Give It Up or Turnit a-Loose is a great example (ii-V on the key of C) and of course Herbie's Chameleon (ii-V in the key of Ab), with nary a I to be seen.

In jazz and other improvised music, knowing how to support your soloist is crucial (obviously.) As @DrewD says, major with a #4 is very different from major. For me, it helps to think of the extensions. Lydian (in my translation) is M#11 instead of M#4. Yes, identical except for the octave the note is located in, but the extensions help in implying harmony above the bass notes.

Lastly, modes are invaluable in learning the fretboard. There are plenty way of learning your fretboard. For me, picking a key and going through its modes up and down the fretboard was and is crucial. And if Phil Lesh is an influence, his use of modes in improvising new basslines every night can be a great guide. Bertha is a great example. The song is in G, and the verses are in C. Not C major tho, C Lydian. Since that F# is definitely emphasized as a tension point going back to groove in G (intro, interludes between verses and choruses.)

Anyway. This message was a lot longer than intended. Hope it helps or at least adds to the conversation.

 

[KenD]

From a funk and groove-based music perspective, modes are essential to vamps and as a TBer mentioned above (apologies for not catching your handle!) are invaluable to tension and release moments due to the location of semitones, depending on what mode you're in.

E.g., Dorian has major sixth instead of minor sixth. It's a semitone away from the minor seventh in the scale. Hammer-ons or pull-offs to/from those two scale degrees are fantastic in vamps. And if you are in the third inversion with the seventh in the bass, there are even more options in the low end. James Brown's Give It Up or Turnit a-Loose is a great example (ii-V on the key of C) and of course Herbie's Chameleon (ii-V in the key of Ab), with nary a I to be seen.

In jazz and other improvised music, knowing how to support your soloist is crucial (obviously.) As @DrewD says, major with a #4 is very different from major. For me, it helps to think of the extensions. Lydian (in my translation) is M#11 instead of M#4. Yes, identical except for the octave the note is located in, but the extensions help in implying harmony above the bass notes.

Lastly, modes are invaluable in learning the fretboard. There are plenty way of learning your fretboard. For me, picking a key and going through its modes up and down the fretboard was and is crucial. And if Phil Lesh is an influence, his use of modes in improvising new basslines every night can be a great guide. Bertha is a great example. The song is in G, and the verses are in C. Not C major tho, C Lydian. Since that F# is definitely emphasized as a tension point going back to groove in G (intro, interludes between verses and choruses.)

Anyway. This message was a lot longer than intended. Hope it helps or at least adds to the conversation.

"Lastly, modes are invaluable in learning the fretboard"

In fact, that is exactly where I use them. Playing the modal scales, with the major moving in the cycle of 4ths. I'm going to start messing with improvising within each mode to see what all the fuss is about

 

[g-dude]

Yeah but I think OP is saying he can play all that stuff without stopping to think what mode he's in, that's all. I'm in the same world as OP

There’s always room to grow and improve. Knowledge is an ingredient in that.

 

[IamGroot]

Learning to use modes opens musical doors. If you don’t think studying/practicing modes is worthwhile then I say that you’re imposing your own limits on what you can do in music. If you’re content with that then carry on.

An example of the usefulness of modes that most people easily can identify with is on guitar: playing a Dorian mode along with many of Carlos Santana’s first several dozen recorded songs. Playing the Dorian mode in its home position gives economy of motion (i.e. damned little position shifting), letting the music sound smooth and graceful. The Dorian mode complements Santana’s composition and style.

A lot of Aeolian and some phyrgian in Carlos's playing as well as Dorian.

 

[Phaidrus]

Apologies for the naïveté but I may just as well ask. In the Bass Guitar for Dummies book, there is a cheat sheet where, under the rubric "Modes (Scales)", it lists the "Ionian (major), Dorian (minor) Phrygian (minor), Lydian (major), Mixolydian (dominant), Aeolian (minor), and Locrian (half-dimished)". So are these modes or scales?

 

[g-dude]

Apologies for the naïveté but I may just as well ask. In the Bass Guitar for Dummies book, there is a cheat sheet where, under the rubric "Modes (Scales)", it lists the Ionian (major), Dorian (minor) Phrygian (minor), Lydian (major), Mixolydian (dominant), Aeolian (minor), and Locrian (half-dimished). So are these modes or scales?

Yes.

I would ignore the parenthesis stuff though - makes it way too confusion.

Each mode is a way of creating a scale.

 

[IamGroot]

Folks, I have been studying the modes and scales and music theory for over 24 years. At first, it was mysterious and I had no Idea how to use it.

Then I got deep into jazz. Levine was beginners stuff after doing the real book routine for 4 years.

Now I just use my ears and briefly refer to theory when I want to add color to "the standard scale" on the page or the pinao player throws me a curveball.

There shouldnt be that much drama to learning modes. IF you only play rock and blues, the pentatonic modes plus the dom 7 and dorian will get you most of the way.

Music theory is just compensation for what we hear and cannot fully grasp in our heads. If you can hear it and play it automatically, congrats,

 

[Phaidrus]

Yes.

I would ignore the parenthesis stuff though - makes it way too confusion.

Each mode is a way of creating a scale.

Yes, meaning they are modes? But also have the properties of a scale?

 

[IamGroot]

Apologies for the naïveté but I may just as well ask. In the Bass Guitar for Dummies book, there is a cheat sheet where, under the rubric "Modes (Scales)", it lists the "Ionian (major), Dorian (minor) Phrygian (minor), Lydian (major), Mixolydian (dominant), Aeolian (minor), and Locrian (half-dimished)". So are these modes or scales?

They are all modes of the Major Scale

Go find the Groot Scale Computer in this forum and it will become clear.

 

[Chickenwheels]

I know what the modes are and I play variations of them frequently in my practice routine - e.g. arpeggios and scales from the diatonic notes of a major scale. What I don't have a clear understanding of is why they are applied or are useful.

For example, if I have a chord chart for a piece of music written in the key of C and I come to a measure marked with the chord Fmaj7, I already know the chord tones (F A C E) and I know the notes of the C scale. What would knowing the applicable mode add?

You’ll have seven other ways of approaching that chord while still using the correct notes. You’ll accomplish this by starting from notes other than the root (F). Same notes, different sequence, whole new vocabulary.

 

[Phaidrus]

IF you only play rock and blues, the pentatonic modes plus the dom 7 and dorian will get you most of the way.

I only play funk and reggae, so I'm in trouble theory wise.


Reggae seems to almost always be a minor scale, so I just try to determine the correct mode, usually Aeolian. So I sort of manage to figure out most tracks and play along as an amateur bass player. I wouldn’t mind having a better understanding of music theory.

 

[Matty Koff]

Apologies for the naïveté but I may just as well ask. In the Bass Guitar for Dummies book, there is a cheat sheet where, under the rubric "Modes (Scales)", it lists the "Ionian (major), Dorian (minor) Phrygian (minor), Lydian (major), Mixolydian (dominant), Aeolian (minor), and Locrian (half-dimished)". So are these modes or scales?

They are both and can be both.

A lot of things in theory define multiple terms because of how the math works out.

If you decide to play in the key of A minor using no sharps or flats you're playing the natural minor scale aka Aeolian mode.. which is still technically C major but still..

I almost typed out all 7 modes of the major scale in a way that shows how each mode of a scale is just choosing a new starting point using the same exact notes and even breaking down the interval formulas to show how all scales, all chords, everything is related to the major scale or more specifically the Ionian mode.

but if you want that information it's out there.. or you can ask me I'm happy to write another mini series.

 

[IamGroot]

See Attached. My goal in 2022 will be to eliminate scale illiteracy in TB.

 

[Phaidrus]

They are both and can be both.

A lot of things in theory define multiple terms because of how the math works out.

If you decide to play in the key of A minor using no sharps or flats you're playing the natural minor scale aka Aeolian mode.. which is still technically C major but still..

I almost typed out all 7 modes of the major scale in a way that shows how each mode of a scale is just choosing a new starting point using the same exact notes and even breaking down the interval formulas to show how all scales, all chords, everything is related to the major scale or more specifically the Ionian mode.

but if you want that information it's out there.. or you can ask me I'm happy to write another mini series.

Thanks! I will ask, with examples, soon!