Modes - Application

[Matty Koff]

Thanks! I will ask, with examples, soon!

I can't promise to have all the answers or to be able to word them quite as efficiently as the PDF @IamGroot provided. But if relating my own experiences and understanding can help, feel free.

It took multiple passes through the books I own to get the half reared understanding I do have >.< and the gains I get these days are small but huge at the same time.

I was playing scales and modes long before I understood much about them.

 

[Malcolm35]

We are at 102 posts. Good going boys and girls.

 

[g-dude]

Yes, meaning they are modes? But also have the properties of a scale?

The major scale is Ionian mode. The minor scale is Aeolian mode.

A mode is a scale. A scale is a mode.

 

[g-dude]

They are all modes of the Major Scale

Go find the Groot Scale Computer in this forum and it will become clear.

Have to disagree.

The major scale is Ionian mode.

 

[BarfanyShart]

I like to eat Thanksgiving pies a la mode.

 

[Matty Koff]

Have to disagree.

The major scale is Ionian mode.

But.. a key of A minor, or more specifically A natural minor, or A Aeolian IS in fact within the key of C major.

*edit* ^^ this is why I'm just going to pick the daggum thing up and play it. Just kidding.. play that major scale. I get it when it's on my fretboard but.. stealing a quote from the post below me with no implication other than theory in discussion without practical application makes it easy to understand why people get confused on this topic.

In this practice, a mode means a scale based on another scale that starts on another degree. You can make a mode of any scale.

 

[arepa_funk]

Have to disagree.

The major scale is Ionian mode.

Yes the major scale is Ionian, but all other modes are OF the major scale. I.e., the same notes as the major scale starting on different degrees.

All of the Greek modes are modes of major scale. There is no such thing as modes of minor scale because the minor scale is the sixth mode of the major scale (Aeolian.)

Harmonic minor and melodic minor have their own modes based on those scales.

In this practice, a mode means a scale based on another scale that starts on another degree. You can make a mode of any scale.

 

[Mushroo]

Apologies for the naïveté but I may just as well ask. In the Bass Guitar for Dummies book, there is a cheat sheet where, under the rubric "Modes (Scales)", it lists the "Ionian (major), Dorian (minor) Phrygian (minor), Lydian (major), Mixolydian (dominant), Aeolian (minor), and Locrian (half-dimished)". So are these modes or scales?

At the strictest level of conservatory-correct music theory, the modes are not technically considered "scales."

But in colloquial, day-to-day use? You can totally call them "scales" and everyone will know what you're talking about. Like if I said "the C Mixolydian scale is C D E F G A Bb C," I don't think that's a confusing statement, do you?

(And the part in parenthesis, about major/minor/dominant/half-diminished? That's telling you which chord-type goes with each scale degree, or in other words, the harmonized major scale.)

 

[StatesideRambler]

Apologies for the naïveté but I may just as well ask. In the Bass Guitar for Dummies book, there is a cheat sheet where, under the rubric "Modes (Scales)", it lists the "Ionian (major), Dorian (minor) Phrygian (minor), Lydian (major), Mixolydian (dominant), Aeolian (minor), and Locrian (half-dimished)". So are these modes or scales?

According to Robert Greenburg, PhD (a musicologist of some distinction) a scale is a collection of pitches. There are collections of pitches with characteristics common in western music. Among them are the Major scale and the modes of that scale. The modes of the Major scale are the same collection of pitches that are in the Major scale, played starting/ending on one of the notes of the Major scale. e.g. Ionian mode starts on the root of the Major scale, therefore it is the Major scale; the Dorian mode is that same collection of pitches played from the second note of the Major scale to the second note one octave higher. Likewise the Phrygian mode starts/ends on the third note (pitch) of the Major scale. And so on. In common usage modes are often referred to as scales, though a rigorous interpretation would not do so. In general it’s OK to do so as long as you and your audience are on the same page.

 

[g-dude]

But.. a key of A minor, or more specifically A natural minor, or A Aeolian IS in fact within the key of C major.

*edit* ^^ this is why I'm just going to pick the daggum thing up and play it. Just kidding.. play that major scale. I get it when it's on my fretboard but.. stealing a quote from the post below me with no implication other than theory in discussion without practical application makes it easy to understand why people get confused on this topic.

And C major is within the key of A minor.

This is why I’m not a fan of saying that X contains Y. I mean, all the majors scales are contained within the chromatic scale.

At the end of the day, there’s an octave. It consists of 12 semitones in the 12 TET system. We create octatonic scales using a series of half and whole steps. There are seven commonly used permutations that result in no more than a single whole step between any two adjacent notes. These permutations are called modes, and the two most common are called the major and minor scales respectively.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

 

[MVE]

But.. a key of A minor, or more specifically A natural minor, or A Aeolian IS in fact within the key of C major.

*edit* ^^ this is why I'm just going to pick the daggum thing up and play it. Just kidding.. play that major scale. I get it when it's on my fretboard but.. stealing a quote from the post below me with no implication other than theory in discussion without practical application makes it easy to understand why people get confused on this topic.

I think people get confused on this topic because we are bass players trying to learn this stuff on a single note instrument by ourselves.
Anyone confused about modes needs to sit down at a piano for about ten minutes and play each mode of C one by one as they play a CMaj chord with their left hand.
The confusion will go away instantly.

 

[Matty Koff]

I think people get confused on this topic because we are bass players trying to learn this stuff on a single note instrument by ourselves.
Anyone confused about modes needs to sit down at a piano for about ten minutes and play each mode of C one by one as they play a CMaj chord with their left hand.
The confusion will go away instantly.

I mean.. you really just got to play the white keys.

And C major is within the key of A minor.

This is why I’m not a fan of saying that X contains Y. I mean, all the majors scales are contained within the chromatic scale.

At the end of the day, there’s an octave. It consists of 12 semitones in the 12 TET system. We create octatonic scales using a series of half and whole steps. There are seven commonly used permutations that result in no more than a single whole step between any two adjacent notes. These permutations are called modes, and the two most common are called the major and minor scales respectively.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

I think this is pretty well put.

Back to the rest of the population of this thread

In regards to conservatory-correct music theory. I must admit I cannot speak for that. If you need to pass a test please don't take my word for it. I'm not qualified to be an academic tutor.

However, in the 21st century I think enough musicians have made an impact and enough people have been taught by someone who teaches only what he knows and how he knows how to do it.. that it's really hard to say the top 10 hits when I asked google "Are modes scales?" are wrong in describing modes as scales derived from scales. I mean... when did people start taking to the Nashville number system? The 1950's? We aren't done having these conversations yet. I was taught the major scale as 7 individual scales personally. By misunderstanding perhaps but with some study later in life.. I still tend to think of them that way when I use them.


Also pointing that sure, on a chart or piece of sheet music.. seeing "Cm7" may dictate a chord but But major/minor/diminished/augmented in discussion and practical application are also tonalities i.e. scales. They are also how we describe the intervals that make up the scales in relation to the Ionian. Some people like to say minor third, some people say flat 3rd.

Granted it'd be nice if we all spoke the same language and could read and write it. But personally

Person with question: "Is this in D minor or F major?" or "Is it an augmented 4 or a flat 5?"

Me: Yes.

I'll quit babbling and leave one more thought towards practical application of modes.. If we say start in C major.. noodling around in Ionian or from chord tones, and then start playing on the next measure C mixolydian or a C7 chord we have effectively changed the key of the song by means of a modal shift or chord change despite utilizing the same root note. That's F major.. I think. You can bounce between a dominant or major chord sharing the same root all day, as well as between corresponding Ionian and Mixolydian modes. There're plenty of uses for that in composition and pleasing the ear.

All of the building blocks have practical application. Choose how you want to think about it afaic, but, "Is it a chord change or a modal shift?" Yes.

 

[Phaidrus]

According to Robert Greenburg, PhD (a musicologist of some distinction) a scale is a collection of pitches. There are collections of pitches with characteristics common in western music. Among them are the Major scale and the modes of that scale. The modes of the Major scale are the same collection of pitches that are in the Major scale, played starting/ending on one of the notes of the Major scale. e.g. Ionian mode starts on the root of the Major scale, therefore it is the Major scale; the Dorian mode is that same collection of pitches played from the second note of the Major scale to the second note one octave higher. Likewise the Phrygian mode starts/ends on the third note (pitch) of the Major scale. And so on. In common usage modes are often referred to as scales, though a rigorous interpretation would not do so. In general it’s OK to do so as long as you and your audience are on the same page.

@Mushroo

So strictly - conservatory-correct - speaking, are there other scales than the Major scale?

 

[IamGroot]

Have to disagree.

The major scale is Ionian mode.

Feel free to disagree.

A major scale has 7 modes and the Ionian is the first degree (mode) of the Major scale in my book. And if you asked me to play a C Major scale, i would play you the Ionian.

See post #99 for further clarification.

 

[IamGroot]

@Mushroo

So strictly - conservatory-correct - speaking, are there other scales than the Major scale?

Heptatonic Systems
--------------------------
Major Scale System
Melodic Minor System
Harmonic Minor System
Harmonic Major System
Double Harmonic System

Symmetrical Systems
----------------------
Diminished (WH)
Diminished (HW)
Whole Tone

Pentatonic Systems
--------------------------
Pentatonic
Melodic Minor Pentatonic.

There are a few other systems out there like the Ukraniana, but they are too obscure for me.

What is important to understand is the note spacing of a given scale system is never superimposable to another system. In other words, you will never find a C dorian scale in a Melodic Minor system, only a Dorian b2. Chemists and math wonks will recognize this as rotation theory.

 

[IamGroot]

There are at least two flavors of Music Theory out there - Classical and Jazz. Talk to a Conservatory trained player and say 2 5 1 , and he/she may say "What? Oh, you mean supertonic to dominant to tonic. How quaint! What do you use that for?"

PS This actually happened to me and the fellow was a superb orchestral player. He just need to buy a funny hat and hang out at jazz bars for a while.

 

[glocke1]

I'll quit babbling and leave one more thought towards practical application of modes.. If we say start in C major.. noodling around in Ionian or from chord tones, and then start playing on the next measure C mixolydian or a C7 chord we have effectively changed the key of the song by means of a modal shift or chord change despite utilizing the same root note. That's F major.. I think. You can bounce between a dominant or major chord sharing the same root all day, as well as between corresponding Ionian and Mixolydian modes. There're plenty of uses for that in composition and pleasing the ear.
.

It's at this point that these conversations become a bit esoteric/an exercise in logic or theory, at least to me. I think if I got as deeply into modes as some here my head would explode because at that point it almost becomes a philosophical/metaphysical thing.

I get what you are saying, but the reality is that as bass players for most of us, unless we are soloing or otherwise want to emphasize the 7th, thats just really not a chord tone we'll spend a lot of time on unless the harmony or the melody of the tune indicates it's a good idea to do so, or if I am walking/playing a blues/soloing over changes where it's clear there is a Dom 7th chord, using it as a passing tone, or the tonal center of the tune shifts to F Major but I delineate that harmonic change by throwing a Bb in there somewhere (probably as a passing tone).

I'm not saying you are wrong or anything, just that for me thats a rather convoluted way of thinking about this stuff, and it takes me back to my earlier point about thinking in terms of chords, " oh, there's a C7 chord there, thats the V chord of F Major, so I can get away with playing a bass line that uses the notes in that tonal center", or I can start my solo on the 3rd note of F major, on the 6th note, etc"...

Whatever works and gets people there though..thats all that matters.

 

[IamGroot]

It's at this point that these conversations become a bit esoteric/an exercise in logic or theory, at least to me. I think if I got as deeply into modes as some here my head would explode because at that point it almost becomes a philosophical/metaphysical thing.

I get what you are saying, but the reality is that as bass players for most of us, unless we are soloing or otherwise want to emphasize the 7th, thats just really not a chord tone we'll spend a lot of time on unless the harmony or the melody of the tune indicates it's a good idea to do so, or if I am walking/playing a blues/soloing over changes where it's clear there is a Dom 7th chord, using it as a passing tone, or the tonal center of the tune shifts to F Major but I delineate that harmonic change by throwing a Bb in there somewhere (probably as a passing tone).

I'm not saying you are wrong or anything, just that for me thats a rather convoluted way of thinking about this stuff, and it takes me back to my earlier point about thinking in terms of chords, " oh, there's a C7 chord there, thats the V chord of F Major, so I can get away with playing a bass line that uses the notes in that tonal center", or I can start my solo on the 3rd note of F major, on the 6th note, etc"...

Whatever works and gets people there though..thats all that matters.

I am very much interested in playing trumpet saxaphone jazz solos on the bass. I never tried SBL, but I have bought lessons fron horn players and knowing theory in a practical way helps as does some of the soloing concepts that horn players use like boxing and playing outside/inside.

 

[Phaidrus]

I can't promise to have all the answers or to be able to word them quite as efficiently as the PDF @IamGroot provided. But if relating my own experiences and understanding can help, feel free.

It took multiple passes through the books I own to get the half reared understanding I do have >.< and the gains I get these days are small but huge at the same time.

I was playing scales and modes long before I understood much about them.

So, here's a question.

Is the bass player, probably Robbie Shakespeare, playing a two bar groove in Gm (Aeolian) starting at C with resolution in G (root, first bar) and in D (5th, second bar)? If so, is tonic the root G?

Or rather is the groove in Cm (Aeolian) starting at C with resolution again in G (this time 5th but an octave lower, first bar) and in D (2nd, second bar)? If so, is tonic the root C?

 

[SteveCS]

...
...
...the key of A minor...
...aka Aeolian mode...
...which is still technically C major...
...

So the minor key is now really just a mode of the major key? C'mon! It's about time people stopped treating scales, modes and keys as the same thing - they aren't. Scales and Modes are melodic devices, Keys are fundamentally harmonic devices. Besides having the same key signature, the key of A Minor has little to do with the key of C Major. The concept of relative minor adds far too much weight to the significance of the relationship, and leads to people learning one (major) then learning the other (minor) only in terms of how it differs from major. Minor key is something entirely self-contained and wholly independent of the relative major. Same for modes...

If we say start in C major.. noodling around in Ionian or from chord tones, and then start playing on the next measure C mixolydian or a C7 chord we have effectively changed the key of the song by means of a modal shift or chord change despite utilizing the same root note. That's F major.. I think.

Not necessarily. You only change key if you intentionally modulate by some method and start to treat F (in this case) as the new tonal centre (or Tonic). If, as you suggest, you continue to treat C as the centre are you just playing myxolydian. The fact that the underlying chord is a C7 does not automatically make that chord a V, nor does it automatically put you in the key of F. It could equally be bVII7 in D minor, V7 in F minor or (again) just a C7 chord supporting a mixolydian melody. It's where you take (or leave) it that matters.