Modes - Application

[Robscott]

And C major is within the key of A minor.

This is why I’m not a fan of saying that X contains Y. I mean, all the majors scales are contained within the chromatic scale.

At the end of the day, there’s an octave. It consists of 12 semitones in the 12 TET system. We create octatonic scales using a series of half and whole steps. There are seven commonly used permutations that result in no more than a single whole step between any two adjacent notes. These permutations are called modes, and the two most common are called the major and minor scales respectively.

That’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

Yep, 12 semitones, pick the ones you like and play 'em. One day someone might tell you what mode that was, if they don't, well.....

 

[Phaidrus]

Yep, 12 semitones, pick the ones you like and play 'em. One day someone might tell you what mode that was, if they don't, well.....

I like this Realpolitik approach!

 

[SteveCS]

So, here's a question.

Is the bass player, probably Robbie Shakespeare, playing a two bar groove in Gm (Aeolian) starting at C with resolution in G (root, first bar) and in D (5th, second bar)? If so, is tonic the root G?

Or rather is the groove in Cm (Aeolian) starting at C with resolution again in G (this time 5th but an octave lower, first bar) and in D (2nd, second bar)? If so, is tonic the root C?

I don't really hear anything particularly modal about it. Its just a straightforward D Minor progression:

Whilst it is true that these chords are harmonised from the natural minor scale (it uses C not C#, hence v not V and bVII not vii°), and the D natural minor scale has the same notes as D Aeolian, the bass, to my ears, is outlining a functional harmonic foundation where bVII has a dominant function. At least that's how I hear it. No need to get bogged down in modes.

 

[Phaidrus]

I don't really hear anything particularly modal about it. Its just a straightforward D Minor progression:

View attachment 4482605

Whilst it is true that these chords are harmonised from the natural minor scale (it uses C not C#, hence v not V and bVII not vii°), and the D natural minor scale has the same notes as D Aeolian, the bass, to my ears, is outlining a functional harmonic foundation where bVII has a dominant function. At least that's how I hear it. No need to get bogged down in modes.

So the root/tonic is the D with emphasis on the C (starting note) and G (sometimes resolves in G)?

 

[Mushroo]

@Mushroo

So strictly - conservatory-correct - speaking, are there other scales than the Major scale?

Good question! I personally think it's a silly debate, but I'll try to give a good-faith answer (since you asked so nice).

The trend in music theory for a long time, was to emphasize tonal harmony. If you look at 20th century music theory textbooks (like I used back when I was in college) the harmony chapters are probably 98% major and minor, with maybe 1 or 2 pages at the back of the book about modal harmony, as a curiosity.

Most songs that people mistakenly identify as as "modal" or "in a mode" are actually just major or minor. Case in point is that Peter Tosh song. People are trying to argue that it's "modal" but it's just straight up minor-key.

Hope that helps some?

 

[Phaidrus]

Good question! I personally think it's a silly debate, but I'll try to give a good-faith answer (since you asked so nice).

The trend in music theory for a long time, was to emphasize tonal harmony. If you look at 20th century music theory textbooks (like I used back when I was in college) the harmony chapters are probably 98% major and minor, with maybe 1 or 2 pages at the back of the book about modal harmony, as a curiosity.

Most songs that people mistakenly identify as as "modal" or "in a mode" are actually just major or minor. Case in point is that Peter Tosh song. People are trying to argue that it's "modal" but it's just straight up minor-key.

Hope that helps some?

Thanks. The moment I think I'm somehow getting it, it becomes more obscure. So my simple question: given that there's different kinds of major and minor groups of 8 notes, we need some further distinction/theoretical construct to describe a given number of notes played together. For example, the notes found in the Phrygian group/mode are not the same than those found in the Aeolian group/mode, although both are minor groups/scales/modes. Or how does it work out?

PS. I'm advocating neither a tonal nor a modal approach as I have no idea anyway. Just an art historian of sorts and amateur bass player trying to figure out what is what. As of the Tosh song, I heard it and liked it, figured out the notes (somehow thinking it's an Aeolian mode shape) and I can play it and have fun with it. But I'm still trying to understand the theory behind it in order to understand it better and also because I'm theory oriented by profession.

 

[glocke1]

Thanks. The moment I think I'm somehow getting it, it becomes more obscure. So my simple question: given that there's different kinds of major and minor groups of 8 notes, we need some further distinction/theoretical construct to describe a given number of notes played together. For example, the notes found in the Phrygian group/mode are not the same than those fond in the Aeolian group/mode, although both are minor groups/scales/modes. Or how does it work out?

PS. I'm advocating neither a tonal nor a modal approach as I have no idea anyway. Just an art historian of sorts and amateur bass player trying to figure out what is what. As of the Tosh song, I heard it and liked it, figured out the notes (somehow thinking it's an Aeolian mode shape) and I can play it and have fun with it. But I'm still trying to understand the theory behind it in order to understand it better and also because I'm theory oriented by profession.

I think the theory behind it is this:

Roll a fat one
Drummer, you start grooving after toking up..
Bass playa, you start grooving on dis riff mon..
I start rapping brotha, praise Jah...

Don't get too wrapped up in this. Its just a vamp and No way in heck those guys were thinking of modes or theory when they came up with that, they just simply found a groove that worked for them and let it flow. Looking at how that is written out, the key is Dm (one flat). If someone called that tune on stage and I'd never played it with that person first question out of my mouth would be " in D minor, like the original recording ? "

 

[Mushroo]

Thanks. The moment I think I'm somehow getting it, it becomes more obscure. So my simple question: given that there's different kinds of major and minor groups of 8 notes, we need some further distinction/theoretical construct to describe a given number of notes played together. For example, the notes found in the Phrygian group/mode are not the same than those fond in the Aeolian group/mode, although both are minor groups/scales/modes. Or how does it work out?

PS. I'm advocating neither a tonal nor a modal approach as I have no idea anyway. Just an art historian of sorts and amateur bass player trying to figure out what is what. As of the Tosh song, I heard it and liked it, figured out the notes (somehow thinking it's an Aeolian mode shape) and I can play it and have fun with it. But I'm still trying to understand the theory behind it in order to understand it better and also because I'm theory oriented by profession.

Out of my 4-year college education, we spent maybe 10-20 minutes talking about Phrygian. It's just not really considered "important" at that level of education.

But like I've said three times now, I don't have a dog in the fight, and if you want to say "Phrygian scale" instead of "Phrygian mode" that is okay with me.

My advice is, step away from the computer, go support live music, and listen to which scales/modes the bands are actually playing on stage, in your home town.

Nobody calls it "Beethoven's 5th Symphony in C Aeolian," know-what-I-mean?

 

[Phaidrus]

I think the theory behind it is this:

Roll a fat one
Drummer, you start grooving after toking up..
Bass playa, you start grooving on dis riff mon..
I start rapping brotha, praise Jah...

Don't get too wrapped up in this. Its just a vamp and No way in heck those guys were thinking of modes or theory when they came up with that, they just simply found a groove that worked for them and let it flow. Looking at how that is written out, the key is Dm (one flat). If someone called that tune on stage and I'd never played it with that person first question out of my mouth would be " in D minor, like the original recording ? "

Yes, most probably the herb acted as a catalyst in this composition.

 

[Mushroo]

I think the theory behind it is this:

Roll a fat one
Drummer, you start grooving after toking up..
Bass playa, you start grooving on dis riff mon..
I start rapping brotha, praise Jah...

Don't get too wrapped up in this. Its just a vamp and No way in heck those guys were thinking of modes or theory when they came up with that, they just simply found a groove that worked for them and let it flow. Looking at how that is written out, the key is Dm (one flat). If someone called that tune on stage and I'd never played it with that person first question out of my mouth would be " in D minor, like the original recording ? "

At least half the students in my university theory course were stoned on herb. There is zero correlation between using "ganja" and being good at music theory. Black people, white people, American people, Jamaican people, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Rastas---all can be equally good at music theory. Robbie Shakespeare maybe knows more about music theory, then you are giving him credit for. Please let's not diminish musicians from other cultures.

 

[Matty Koff]

So the minor key is now really just a mode of the major key?

... okay man you tell that to every piece of sheet music of a song that's based out of A minor where the Key signature has no sharps or no flats and is written as C major. I didn't say "The minor is is just a mode of C major". I said the key A minor IS the key of C major.

C'mon! It's about time people stopped treating scales, modes and keys as the same thing

I'm talking about how they all correlate with eachother..

Not necessarily. You only change key if you intentionally modulate by some method and start to treat F (in this case) as the new tonal centre (or Tonic).

So if the chord you utilize isn't within the key you're playing in.. it HAS to come from another key.

This may not always be noted.. but the fact of the matter is YOU ARE PLAYING FROM ANOTHER KEY. I don't need a sheet of paper to tell me that.. it's not hard to figure out where a C7 would normally be found and that's F major.

So yeah.. you ARE switching keys momentarily.. you might not note that on a piece of sheet music.. it doesn't mean you aren't now pulling notes from the Mixolydian mode in the key of F major.


Thanks.. but I'm not wrong. It's pretty much describing what a modal shift is.. which is quite similar to that of changing chords.. and both can correlate.. and even not. That's the fun of music ain't it?

 

[SteveCS]

So the root/tonic is the D with emphasis on the C (starting note) and G (sometimes resolves in G)?

The Tonic is D. The bass part consists almost entirely of the roots (D, C and A) of the chords (Dm, C and Am). The only other note included in the bass part is F, which is used to emphasis the minor key by reinforcing the minor quality of the Tonic chord which in turn strengthens the overall minor tonality. Where are you hearing a G?

 

[glocke1]

At least half the students in my university theory course were stoned on herb. There is zero correlation between using "ganja" and being good at music theory. Black people, white people, American people, Jamaican people, Christians, Jews, Muslims, Rastas---all can be equally good at music theory. Robbie Shakespeare maybe knows more about music theory, then you are giving him credit for. Please let's not diminish musicians from other cultures.

I think you are over interpreting my post to suit your own sensitivities and putting a spin on it that is not there...good grief...I'll leave it at that so as not to get an account warning.

I literally was saying " I really, really doubt they were thinking anything about modes, or really thinking in music theory terms at all "

I know there is a tendency on this site for people to get bogged down in these discussions, but sometimes musicians just come up with things spontaneously because it feels good or sounds good to them and they are not using theoretical principles to come up with those things.

 

[SteveCS]

... okay man you tell that to every piece of sheet music of a song that's based out of A minor where the Key signature has no sharps or no flats and is written as C major.

Nonsense! Music in A minor is not written as C major. On it's own, no sharps or flats in the key signature means squat. You need to look at the actual music which follows to find clues, e.g. How does the tune go? What is the harmonic structure? What are the cadences? Where/how do they resolve? Are there any accidentals, e.g. are most of the G actually G# (= probably A minor not C major), etc...

 

[Robscott]

What I don't have a clear understanding of is why they are applied or are useful.

Well I've read all 133 posts on this (plus all the other times this topic has come up) and it seems nobody else does either

 

[IamGroot]

If I do ganja, my music dies. And I worry about my math for at least three days.

My drug of choice is coffee.

 

[Matty Koff]

Nonsense! Music in A minor is not written as C major. On it's own, no sharps or flats in the key signature means squat. You need to look at the actual music which follows to find clues, e.g. How does the tune go? What is the harmonic structure? What are the cadences? Where/how do they resolve? Are there any accidentals, e.g. are most of the G actually G# (= probably A minor not C major), etc...

If anything..this is a choice made by the writer just like debating whether to use a sharp or a flat and sometimes is dictated by note or chord choice at the end of the passage.

It doesn't change that the key signature for both keys is one in the same.. and often notated that way. I'm trying to think.. was it Queen? Pink Floyd? You might want to go correct whoever it was.. because I already crossed this bridge when I was playing a song in A minor that was noted as C major and even said so of the top of a page when I was first getting lessons with my first bass. I didn't hang on to the thought quite as much as I might have say thought about modes or chord tones. It was simple enough for me to accept my teacher's explanation and move on.

"Is it A minor or C major?" "Yes." That's not just a joke I'm making.. those were the responses I was given when I was actually asking them of college educated musicians turned instructor.

When we sit here and debate this crap it really makes it sound more complicated than practical application turns out to be.

 

[g-dude]

I am very much interested in playing trumpet saxaphone jazz solos on the bass. I never tried SBL, but I have bought lessons fron horn players and knowing theory in a practical way helps as does some of the soloing concepts that horn players use like boxing and playing outside/inside.

Horn Players have to breathe from time to time. The result is wonderfully natural phrasing - something worth emulating on the bass.

 

[g-dude]

Out of my 4-year college education, we spent maybe 10-20 minutes talking about Phrygian. It's just not really considered "important" at that level of education.

But like I've said three times now, I don't have a dog in the fight, and if you want to say "Phrygian scale" instead of "Phrygian mode" that is okay with me.

My advice is, step away from the computer, go support live music, and listen to which scales/modes the bands are actually playing on stage, in your home town.

Nobody calls it "Beethoven's 5th Symphony in C Aeolian," know-what-I-mean?

No, it’s clearly c-Moll

 

[IamGroot]

Horn Players have to breathe from time to time. The result is wonderfully natural phrasing - something worth emulating on the bass.

ABSOLUTELY.

WHen you play a Charlie Parker solo on bass, the challenge is not the speed or the notes, but getting the phrasing, which pushes you into uncommon territory on fingering methods..