Modes

[pecBass]

I am working on understanding modes. Is the following true.

Given a song in G and it moves from a I to a IV, when the C is hit, i can theoretically noodle around on the lydian scale on C. If the song goes to the V, i can noodle on the mixolydian D scale.

Is this right? Thank you

 

[Mushroo]

Sure, that would be technically "correct" and you might even fool a non-musician into thinking you know the song. But an experienced musician would hear that you are just noodling. And calling it "G ionian-C lydian-D mixolydian" instead of simply "I-IV-V in G" is like a little kid using big words to try and sound precocious. When I was a know-it-all kid I used to say "epidermis" instead of "skin" for example.

Unfortunately there is no shortcut if you want to write great bass lines: you need to study, learn, and practice. To write a great bass line over the chord progression G, C, D the topic you want to be studying is "tonal harmony" (not "modes"). What percentage of your lessons does your teacher devote to tonal harmony? What exercises are you practicing at home to study tonal harmony? Can you tell me please what are the "chord tones" of the G, C, D chords? Do you have any favorite songs that use this progression?

 

[craigie]

Here’s a better way to think of it:
In the key of G the C Lydian and D mixolidian modes are just the same as the G major scale.

I always understand chord tones and any notes that are “outside” of the key first.

 

[Febs]

Given a song in G and it moves from a I to a IV, when the C is hit, i can theoretically noodle around on the lydian scale on C. If the song goes to the V, i can noodle on the mixolydian D scale.

Is this right? Thank you

You are right in that you identified the correct modes for those chords in that progression. Personally, however, I don't find a lot of utility in thinking in terms of modes over that type of progression. I prefer to think of it this way: all of those modes contain the same collection of pitches, all of which are diatonic to G major:

G Major (I): G A B C D E F# G
C Major (IV): G A B C D E F# G
D Major (V): G A B C D E F# G

In each instance above, the root of the chord is bold and underlined, and other chord tones are in bold. When I'm creating a bass line over that type of progression, I tend to start with the root and other chord tones and then recognize that you can connect the chord tones with notes from the scale (the non-bold notes shown above) or non-chord tones (all of the other notes not listed above).

It's true that if I'm on the IV chord, and I'm starting on the C root and playing other notes of the G scale, that I am essentially playing a C lydian scale, but I don't tend to think of it that way in the moment.

 

[JTE]

This thinking of a diatonic chord progession as three separate chords is the crux of the problem I see either applying modal thinking to clearly diatonic music. Those chords are related to each other by being in the key of C. Half of our job as bassists is to define the harmony, which include not only telling everywhere the current chord is, but how it relates to the previous one and to the next one.

While thinking "dorian, mixolydian, ionic" for a ii V I progression can get you the "right" note, the mental process removes how you tie them together.

 

[Lownote38]

This thinking of a diatonic chord progession as three separate chords is the crux of the problem I see either applying modal thinking to clearly diatonic music. Those chords are related to each other by being in the key of C. Half of our job as bassists is to define the harmony, which include not only telling everywhere the current chord is, but how it relates to the previous one and to the next one.

While thinking "dorian, mixolydian, ionic" for a ii V I progression can get you the "right" note, the mental process removes how you tie them together.

Not if you know them so well that you don't have to think about it, and also study up on approach tones and ways to chromatically connect chord tones. That being said, modes are fine when things are diatonic, but much of the commercial music we hear (including blues) is not diatonic. Thinking diatonic for everything is a great way to limit your playing.

 

[Lownote38]

Nice to hear you back.
Happy New Year!

You too!!

 

[Groove Doctor]

The first thing is learning to hear the unique “colour” the #4 with the IV chord (F# with Cmaj) and the b7 with the V7 chord (C with D7 chord) bring to those chords.

Next thing is learning how the create tension and release with them, and listening out for subtle ways (and not so subtle ways) they fit into the melody/bass line/harmonies of songs you’re listening to.

 

[Mushroo]

The first thing is learning to hear the unique “colour” the #4 in the IV chord (F# in Cmaj) and the b7 in the V7 chord (C in D7 chord) bring to those chords.

Next thing is learning how the create tension and release with them, and listening out for subtle ways (and not so subtle ways) they fit into the melody/bass line/harmonies of songs you’re listening to.

Respectfully, there's no F# in a CMaj chord, and no C in a DMaj chord.

This is why I hate the "chord/mode" teaching style.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Respectfully, there's no F# in a CMaj chord, and no C in a DMaj chord.

This is why I hate the "chord/mode" teaching style.

edited: in -> with.

The essence was asking the OP to listen.

PS. There IS a C in a D7 chord. Please quote me correctly.

 

[Mushroo]

edited: in -> with.

The essence was asking the OP to listen.

PS. There IS a C in a D7 chord. Please quote me correctly.

I agree, but you were the first person in the thread to mention D7, leading me to believe that perhaps you misread the OP.

(Also that is another great argument against the "mode/chord" concept. If you are thinking "D Mixolydian" then you are more likely to accidentally play D7 instead of Dmaj. But if you are thinking chordally, you will not make that rookie mistake.)

I will never ever argue with advice to listen. That is great advice!

 

[Fergie Fulton]

I am working on understanding modes. Is the following true.

Given a song in G and it moves from a I to a IV, when the C is hit, i can theoretically noodle around on the lydian scale on C. If the song goes to the V, i can noodle on the mixolydian D scale.

Is this right? Thank you

Sort of...but if you want the best from modes you need a fuller musical education...The more you have a fuller knowledge and understanding about music the more you will know and understand about modes....but if you know nothing really about music then you know nothing really about modes.
To get the best from modes you apply them to what you know musically...so if you know nothing you learn nothing.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I will never ever argue with advice to listen. That is great advice!

One of my teachers had a great system:
show me a song, got me to work it out by ear & write it down, then taught me the theory last. That approach continues to help me 30 years later.

 

[madbass6]

Sure, that would be technically "correct" and you might even fool a non-musician into thinking you know the song. But an experienced musician would hear that you are just noodling. And calling it "G ionian-C lydian-D mixolydian" instead of simply "I-IV-V in G" is like a little kid using big words to try and sound precocious. When I was a know-it-all kid I used to say "epidermis" instead of "skin" for example.

Unfortunately there is no shortcut if you want to write great bass lines: you need to study, learn, and practice. To write a great bass line over the chord progression G, C, D the topic you want to be studying is "tonal harmony" (not "modes"). What percentage of your lessons does your teacher devote to tonal harmony? What exercises are you practicing at home to study tonal harmony? Can you tell me please what are the "chord tones" of the G, C, D chords? Do you have any favorite songs that use this progression?

or you could just hire this guy as your teacher! Very well said!!

 

[Russell L]

Playing a G C D7 progression is purely diatonic in the key of G, based on the G major scale. Thinking C Lydian and D Mixolydian kinda complicates things beyond necessity, I think, although it will give you the same notes, true.

 

[sing-modulator]

regardless of harmonic content, you're always wrong if youre noodling. you should be playing with melodic intent, using modes as guides, but not relying on them to make your random notes sound good.

 

[MixBass]

The first thing is learning to hear the unique “colour” the #4 with the IV chord (F# with Cmaj) and the b7 with the V7 chord (C with D7 chord) bring to those chords.

Next thing is learning how the create tension and release with them, and listening out for subtle ways (and not so subtle ways) they fit into the melody/bass line/harmonies of songs you’re listening to.

Another mode debate
I would agree with this as one useful way of thinking and applying knowledge of modes.
If it simply says C and that’s the 4 of G, there would be an F#(raised 4 of C). Likewise if it says simply D and still in the key of G, then you’d play a C natural (lowered 7).
The most important thing I’ve come across with modes is to hear those color differences (i.e. raised 4 and lowered 7, yet both major chords) so you can identify the sound of a passage, chord etc, as quickly as possible.
For example “uptown funk”: there are
several times when the color of the raised 6 sticks out in lines that are played. I hear it’s a minor jam so I know it’s for the most part a Dorian jam.
How many James Brown guitar parts have that color....

Once your ear identifies the different sound of each mode quickly I’d stop thinking about any other way of using it and let it happen however it does.
The most use I get out of modes is to quickly identify a passage or chord. If you’re at the point where your ear tells you that sound on the fly, you probably know the fingering by then!
That said: the veracity of a chart is also up for grabs.
So in your example if it says C, use your ears to see if indeed it has a raised 4 (the melody or chord maybe)...very often it won’t. It’s entirely possible that the chords played are all Mixolydian for example, blues anyone? But your ear will tell you that if you work on the “sound or color” of each mode.
Leave Phrygian and Locrian for last, unless you’re in a metal band!

 

[nnnnnn]

For the G C D progression it makes more sense to just think of the whole thing as being in G major (or the whole thing is G Ionian). Saying that the C would use the Lydian scale doesn't get you anywhere when that is just the same notes as you have in the key the whole song is in anyway, it just unnecessarily complicates things.

Where thinking "modes" makes sense to me is when the mode applies to the whole progression (or to a whole section of a song). So if your progression was centred on G but was actually G F C you could use G mixolydian across all three chords, because even over the G and C chords the melody probably would use an F natural rather than an F sharp.

 

[Two-Spirit]

I think a certain amount of music theory is important but it more about understanding you genre. Music theory just helps you do that.

 

[sonny1]

i use the modes often, they are a map to the entire fretboard and should not be ignored. i play alot of fast music and the modes allow me to move around on the fly quickly. i also use chord substitutions using the modes and mixing them together, for example playing over a minor chord and inserting the ionian mode on the minor 3rd, or playing the dorian mode over a dominant 7, or the blues scale over a dominant. or even the melodic minor a semi tone above the root of a dominant (or from the 5th of, or the 4th of) point is.. the modes are important .. it's dam hard to do those things if you don't have the modes committed to muscle memory. not saying they are 'everything" or the "most crucial" but just that they are important too. please excuse my rambling.