Muscle memory?

[mjnyc]

I have a question about muscle memory and scales.

So I'm learning the pentatonic patterns up and down the fretboard. At this point I can visualize in my head the patterns, and when I choose to play one, I play the notes as I see the pattern in my head.

After I've played one of these scale patterns for a bunch of times, I can play that same pattern basically just with "muscle memory", without having to visualize the whole pattern, just sort of automatically.

This works well for a scale up and down. But if I want to jump around that same pattern for a line or a solo, at this point I'm not able to use muscle memory, since that memory was tied to a scale up and down. I have to go back to seeing the pattern to choose the notes.

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue?

Many many thanks

Michael

 

[Rhythmman535]

You are putting the (pattern) cart before the (music) horse. Think about an infant trying to speak his first word. He's not thinking about where to put his tongue, how to set his lips, how to move his jaw, how much air to move etc. All he cares about is reproducing a sound he heard to speak a word. In the process the muscle memory allows him (us) to develop our speech. There is more than one (pattern) way to play a scale. Just starting with a different finger and instances of using open strings will disrupt your pattern approach. What you're doing is seeing what you're playing but you're not hearing it.

 

[mjnyc]

... Just starting with a different finger and instances of using open strings will disrupt your pattern approach. What you're doing is seeing what you're playing but you're not hearing it.

This makes total sense. So maybe start a pentatonic scale someplace, get the sound in your head, then move someplace else on the fretboard and try to hit the same collection of notes "instinctively" rather than by visualizing a pattern. I can almost do this occasionally...

Many thanks.

Michael

 

[fearceol]

So maybe start a pentatonic scale someplace, get the sound in your head, then move someplace else on the fretboard and try to hit the same collection of notes "instinctively" rather than by visualizing a pattern.

Yes...and better still... pay close attention to chord tones. They deserve equal attention to that of scales.

Chord Tones Are Primary | StudyBass

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Yes...and better still... pay close attention to chord tones. They deserve equal attention to that of scales.

Chord Tones Are Primary | StudyBass

I consider that article completely wrong. If you don't know a scale, how do you know which notes go in a give chord?

 

[fearceol]

I consider that article completely wrong. If you don't know a scale, how do you know which notes go in a give chord?

I think he is referring to people who endlessly practice only scales up and down the neck without ever thinking about chord tones. Scales are the building blocks of chords, so..once you have the building blocks, go ahead and make something with them...as you do with chords.

He emphasises the importance of scales, but merely advises not neglecting chord tones.

 

[mjnyc]

Interestingly, I just realized that my question is another way of looking at something I asked here a few weeks ago about "what goes through your mind when you play". ( Mental process while playing )

There were tons of excellent answers there, and they probably apply here too. Thanks.

Michael

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I think he is referring to people who endlessly practice only scales up and down the neck without ever thinking about chord tones. Scales are the building blocks of chords, so..once you have the building blocks, go ahead and make something with them...as you do with chords.

He emphasises the importance of scales, but merely advises not neglecting chord tones.

He states you should learn chord tones first. That is my objection.

 

[fearceol]

Interestingly, I just realized that my question is another way of looking at something I asked here a few weeks ago about "what goes through your mind when you play". ( Mental process while playing )

There were tons of excellent answers there, and they probably apply here too. Thanks.

Michael

As the article says...scales are VERY important...but so too are chord tones, for these are what the bassist plays 90% of the time..not scales.

Yes, learn your scales and then move swiftly on to chord tones.

By the way... really "knowing" your scales involves more than just being able to play them at a gazillion BPM's all over the neck. You need to to know how chords are formed from scales, and how to harmonise the major scale.

 

[fearceol]

He states you should learn chord tones first. That is my objection.

I don't mean to split hairs, but he does not say you should learn chord tones first. He says it is a bad idea to have students FOCUS on scales without having much knowledge of chord tones. "Focus" to me...implies to concentrate on something specifically and neglect something else.

 

[Killing Floor]

You're obviously willing to do the work so that's a great step that many people don't make.
Muscle memory is real. But it's also what @Rhythmman535 said. But don't panic. Some learning of theory and learning of the mechanics can be concurrent so I wouldn't suggest you are doing something wrong. Just pay attention to the musical patterns at least as much as the mechanical steps and you'll be just fine. The muscle memory part will kick in as will the music theory part. Brains are weird.

 

[lfmn16]

Good that you know your scales, now you need to learn how to apply them. It just takes time and practice. Eventually you'll get to the point where you think about making music, not the mechanics of playing.

 

[joelns]

Tangential hair splitting rant time.

"Muscle memory" doesn't exist. Muscles don't have a memory. It's a very imprecise term used to describe a very interesting function within the brain. Rather, practicing "programs" your subconscious. That's the part of the brain that controls things like breathing, heartbeat, blinking, walking, eating, etc. When you repetitively practice particular actions, you're programming your subconscious to perform those actions so that they can be done without conscious thought.

The term "muscle memory" is horrible as it incorrectly describes something done by your brain.

 

[Papageno]

You may try this: sing some improvised line using notes from the pentatonic scale. Repeat it again and again (singing). Then play along while you sing. The goal is that your fingers (using "muscle" memory) find automatically the notes corresponding to the sound you have in your head.

 

[ComeHomeShane]

Here's what I tell my intermediate bass/guitar students in my band program...

1. Learn pentatonic scale.
2. Learn pentatonic scale starting on each different note (withholding the word 'mode' because that just confuses people.
3. Play along with a youtube jam track with simple chords that will allow you to play all of those versions of the pent. scales and HEAR which note to start on.

Obviously there are a million more parts to it, but my approach has always been to take bite size pieces and let students guide themselves.

 

[ComeHomeShane]

Tangential hair splitting rant time.

"Muscle memory" doesn't exist. Muscles don't have a memory. It's a very imprecise term used to describe a very interesting function within the brain. Rather, practicing "programs" your subconscious. That's the part of the brain that controls things like breathing, heartbeat, blinking, walking, eating, etc. When you repetitively practice particular actions, you're programming your subconscious to perform those actions so that they can be done without conscious thought.

The term "muscle memory" is horrible as it incorrectly describes something done by your brain.

an important rant, nonetheless...

 

[mjnyc]

And I thought I slept through that lecture in medical school where they go over the muscle brain...



Michael

 

[micguy]

Scales are...interesting. You will find, however, a lot of musicians that, after a while (looks both ways) don't practice scales. If you're constantly practicing music, all the relationships in your head that scales build can be solidly in place without doing scales. In fact, working with real music parts instead of scales, the relationships you build are all kinds of different intervals, not just what note goes next in a sequence.

Muscle memory (no, it isn't all in your muscles, but it involves them and your brain) takes time. Not weeks or months, but years in a lot of cases. I have decades to work with. One of the things I will do when I have music well rehearsed for a weekend (I do church gigs) is close my eyes and practice. I've been in bands where we turned out the lights during rehearsals. With good muscle memory, you can play just fine without visual cues. It's a good test to "see" (like what I did there?) where you are.

 

[Ralph Manak]

Regarding scales and chord tones: the relationship between them can be developed in both directions, and it may be most helpful to understand them as such. We tend to learn that chord tones come out of the scales, yet the sound of a scale is to a large degree related to the chord tones, and the notes between the chord tones are found in the chord extensions. I wonder if learning that chord tones coming out of scale is taught as a matter of convenience, which has the negative side-effect of putting the brain before the ear.

 

[vvvmmm]

I remember when I used to have muscles ...