Muscle memory?

[jpmcbride]

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue

Lots of good advice in this thread. Here is my 2 cents ...

Muscle memory is a good thing. Its great to have a lot of patterns that are embedded in your muscle memory to call on when you need them. Just playing a scale up and down though is not enough though. Play fragments of the scale (3 or 4 notes), play common patterns from the scale, play riffs from the scale.

 

[Koshchei]

I have a question about muscle memory and scales.

So I'm learning the pentatonic patterns up and down the fretboard. At this point I can visualize in my head the patterns, and when I choose to play one, I play the notes as I see the pattern in my head.

After I've played one of these scale patterns for a bunch of times, I can play that same pattern basically just with "muscle memory", without having to visualize the whole pattern, just sort of automatically.

This works well for a scale up and down. But if I want to jump around that same pattern for a line or a solo, at this point I'm not able to use muscle memory, since that memory was tied to a scale up and down. I have to go back to seeing the pattern to choose the notes.

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue?

Many many thanks

Michael

You need to break it into smaller patterns, i.e. ascending and descending in 3rds, 7ths, and 9ths, in groups of three, four, or five notes, chord tones, skipping strings, etc. If you only practice linear playing, you only get good at linear playing.

 

[Koshchei]

He states you should learn chord tones first. That is my objection.

You should. It’s a more jazz-centric approach, but will get you making music much sooner. I regret that I started with conservatory, as I wasted a lot of time developing skills more applicable to the analysis of music rather than the creation of music.

 

[wysiwyg248]

I have a question about muscle memory and scales.

So I'm learning the pentatonic patterns up and down the fretboard. At this point I can visualize in my head the patterns, and when I choose to play one, I play the notes as I see the pattern in my head.

After I've played one of these scale patterns for a bunch of times, I can play that same pattern basically just with "muscle memory", without having to visualize the whole pattern, just sort of automatically.

This works well for a scale up and down. But if I want to jump around that same pattern for a line or a solo, at this point I'm not able to use muscle memory, since that memory was tied to a scale up and down. I have to go back to seeing the pattern to choose the notes.

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue?

Many many thanks

Michael

My two cents: Work at developing listening memory. As someone posted earlier, there are many, many ways to play a scale based on starting finger, if you want to play it up or down, etc. learning to recognize the individual notes and the order IMHO is way more important.

 

[MVE]

Tangential hair splitting rant time.

"Muscle memory" doesn't exist. Muscles don't have a memory. It's a very imprecise term used to describe a very interesting function within the brain. Rather, practicing "programs" your subconscious. That's the part of the brain that controls things like breathing, heartbeat, blinking, walking, eating, etc. When you repetitively practice particular actions, you're programming your subconscious to perform those actions so that they can be done without conscious thought.

The term "muscle memory" is horrible as it incorrectly describes something done by your brain.

Muscle memory is a common term for “procedural memory.”
All musicians should google and read up on procedural memory.

 

[Wasnex]

Tangential hair splitting rant time.

"Muscle memory" doesn't exist. Muscles don't have a memory. It's a very imprecise term used to describe a very interesting function within the brain. Rather, practicing "programs" your subconscious. That's the part of the brain that controls things like breathing, heartbeat, blinking, walking, eating, etc. When you repetitively practice particular actions, you're programming your subconscious to perform those actions so that they can be done without conscious thought.

The term "muscle memory" is horrible as it incorrectly describes something done by your brain.

Overly pendantic and also not 100% factually accurate as there are many autonomic responses that are not controlled specifically by the brain. Rather than being rude and continuing to argue something that is totally off topic, how about we don't .


Also, pretty sure everyone knows exactly what is meant by muscle memory.

 

[Wasnex]

I have a question about muscle memory and scales.

So I'm learning the pentatonic patterns up and down the fretboard. At this point I can visualize in my head the patterns, and when I choose to play one, I play the notes as I see the pattern in my head.

After I've played one of these scale patterns for a bunch of times, I can play that same pattern basically just with "muscle memory", without having to visualize the whole pattern, just sort of automatically.

This works well for a scale up and down. But if I want to jump around that same pattern for a line or a solo, at this point I'm not able to use muscle memory, since that memory was tied to a scale up and down. I have to go back to seeing the pattern to choose the notes.

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue?

Many many thanks

Michael

Part of the problem is your oversimplifying the problem. In order to really use a pattern approach your going to have to extend the idea to modes.

For the major scale you have 7 relative modes.

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian

The same modes relate to the natural minor, but you start on Aeolian.
Aeolian
Locrian
Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian

It gets a lot messier when you start dealing with the harmonic minor and melodic minor forms.

Harmonic Minor
Locrian #6
Ionian #5
Dorian #4
Phrygian Dominant
Lydian #2
Ultralocrian

Melodic Minor
Dorian b2
Lydian #5
Lydian Dominant
Mixolydian b6
Semilocrian
Superlocrian

Hopefully I transcribed everything correctly .

 

[MVE]

Scales and chords are the same thing.
Chords are parts of scales.
You cannot study one without studying the other.
Studying chords without studying scales is like a child learning to count to ten but only learning the odd numbers.
And when it really comes down to it, there is only one scale: the chromatic scale.

 

[Wasnex]

Scales and chords are the same thing.
Chords are parts of scales.
You cannot study one without studying the other.
Studying chords without studying scales is like a child learning to count to ten but only learning the odd numbers.
And when it really comes down to it, there is only one scale: the chromatic scale.

"Scales and chords are the same thing."​

I don't agree entirely with this.

"Chords are parts of scales."​

I agree with this.

The problem with the first statement is the same chord can belong to multiple scales (although I think it's more accurate to say multiple modes IMHO). So I don't think it's entirely accurate to say scales and chords are the same thing.

Let's take a D7 chord (D,F#,A,C). This chord implies the possibility of at least 4 diatonic modes:

1a. V in G major (D Mixolydian mode),
1b. VII in E natural minor (D Mixolydian mode),
2. V in G Harmonic minor (D Phrygian Dominant mode),
3. V in G Melodic minor (Mixolydian b6 mode), and
4. IV in A melodic minor (Lydian Dominant mode).​

"And when it really comes down to it, there is only one scale: the chromatic scale."​

I don't have any idea what you are getting at here. Ultimately all scales are artificial man-made constructs, so I think one could make a strong argument that none of them exist naturally.

How do you justify such a statement when much of the world's music uses smaller intervals (quarter tones)? I.E. How can the chromatic scale be the only existent scale when it cannot be used to play much of the worlds music?

 

[downunder]

In the end we play what we’ve practiced. So if you’re practicing pentatonic scales all the time you’ll get good at playing pentatonic scales. When I was studying and doing scale training my teacher would have me practice the scales and arpeggios of course, but then practice different patterns based on scales whatever they happen to be. Like for instance instead of playing the whole pentatonic scale, play the first four notes of the scale, go back to the second note and play 4 notes then go back to the third and play 4 notes....
CDEG, DEGA, EGAC, GACD, etc. make up your own patterns and practice those. Then when you start combining them in your solos or whatever you’ll have a lot more flexibility. Another pattern might be CEDGEAGCAD. Do everything in 12 keys circle of 5ths at least 2 octaves take two aspirin call me in the morning

 

[Wasnex]

In the end we play what we’ve practiced. So if you’re practicing pentatonic scales all the time you’ll get good at playing pentatonic scales. When I was studying and doing scale training my teacher would have me practice the scales and arpeggios of course, but then practice different patterns based on scales whatever they happen to be. Like for instance instead of playing the whole pentatonic scale, play the first four notes of the scale, go back to the second note and play 4 notes then go back to the third and play 4 notes....
CDEG, DEGA, EGAC, GACD, etc. make up your own patterns and practice those. Then when you start combining them in your solos or whatever you’ll have a lot more flexibility. Another pattern might be CEDGEAGCAD. Do everything in 12 keys circle of 5ths at least 2 octaves take two aspirin call me in the morning

You might like this video:

Basically the video focuses primarily on playing pentatonic chords over D min. He demonstrates three options:
1. starting on the root, D minor pentatonic (DFGAC)
2. starting on the 5th, A minor pentatonic (ACDEG)
3. starting on the 2nd (or 9th), E minor pentatonic (EGABD) Note we are following cyle of 5ths, I.E. D to A to E

Obviously the third option starts to get "out" a bit as you play a B natural, so it will sound like D dorian instead of D aeolian.

This covers the same material on the keyboard...and takes it a bit further.

 

[logdrum]

I am really grateful I was taught piano as a child. Because like learning language, there was no analytical breakdown of anything. At the end of the day, you played melody, chords and bassline and learned to read.

I wish I kept at it. My piano teacher told me later that she would get mad because I would not follow the recommended fingering but she said i had the innate ability to reproduce the music. John Patittucci encourages that we do scale exercise on the one string. This is a great skill because it will break you out of the pattern memorization. Give yourself only 14 frets per string and try the circle of fifths both minor and major. This will force you to complete a scale without starting at the root and in no time you will become familiar with every note on the fretboard.

 

[TrevorR]

As others have said, lots of people just learn their scale by running up and down them - 1 to 8 and then 8 back to 1. I always found it useful to add practicing scale intervals alongside that. So instead of playing simply up and down playing 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, 1-7, 1-8 and 8-1, 7-1, 6-1 etc. It helps get the relationship between the intervals into your subconscious.

Them I would adapt that to using scale and chord tones to play simple, semi-random bass lines like 1-4-7-5-1 or 1-2-1-5-3-6-1 or whatever to help internalise how the intervals related to each other. All the time singing the interval name while playing the patterns as that's really good ear training too.

Next step was to play some favourite bass lines while similarly singing the interval names for each note to put the interval relationships into a more familiar, real world context.

 

[mjnyc]

So many great suggestions.
Keep me busy for a long time!
Thanks all

Michael

 

[JRA]

The term "muscle memory" is horrible as it incorrectly describes something done by your brain.

pretty sure everyone knows exactly what is meant by muscle memory.

 

[Koshchei]

Scales and chords are the same thing.
Chords are parts of scales.
You cannot study one without studying the other.
Studying chords without studying scales is like a child learning to count to ten but only learning the odd numbers.
And when it really comes down to it, there is only one scale: the chromatic scale.

In an abstract sense, yes, but each mode has a specific use in a musical context, can be subbed and altered with other modes and scales, etc. In music, context is literally everything, so learn your chord tones, modes, scales, and arpeggio shapes intentionally, so that you can make the most of them.

Also: you miss nothing if you focus on chord tones first. You get the other intervals, albeit in a more useful form, when you learn your upper extensions.

I'll say it again: In music, context is literally everything.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

You are putting the (pattern) cart before the (music) horse. Think about an infant trying to speak his first word. He's not thinking about where to put his tongue, how to set his lips, how to move his jaw, how much air to move etc. All he cares about is reproducing a sound he heard to speak a word. In the process the muscle memory allows him (us) to develop our speech. There is more than one (pattern) way to play a scale. Just starting with a different finger and instances of using open strings will disrupt your pattern approach. What you're doing is seeing what you're playing but you're not hearing it.

Great post. Well explained.

 

[mjnyc]

Agree!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I have a question about muscle memory and scales.

So I'm learning the pentatonic patterns up and down the fretboard. At this point I can visualize in my head the patterns, and when I choose to play one, I play the notes as I see the pattern in my head.

After I've played one of these scale patterns for a bunch of times, I can play that same pattern basically just with "muscle memory", without having to visualize the whole pattern, just sort of automatically.

This works well for a scale up and down. But if I want to jump around that same pattern for a line or a solo, at this point I'm not able to use muscle memory, since that memory was tied to a scale up and down. I have to go back to seeing the pattern to choose the notes.

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue?

Many many thanks

Michael

In the end you are playing music, not positions. Pardon this example. You can train a seal to play a song by training him to play horns in a specific order but that doesn’t mean it’s a musician. It’s a good thing to know where those intervals are on the fingerboard, it’s even better to know what the notes actually are, but the notes you play have a specific purpose in piece and recommend you focus on that.

 

[mambo4]

While I agree that arpeggios are more useful overall than just scales, I "learned" scales before I "learned" chord tones, myself. "learned" in quotes because of course there are still areas of both to explore and improve even after 30 years of playing.

And of course we practice scales and arpeggios not simply to play them as scales and arpeggios "up and down", but to teach our fingers the map of where they fall on the fingerboard. That is why an effective and thorough set of scale / arpeggio exercises goes far beyond simply "scales up and down". Practice playing in 3rds, 4ths, in 5ths etc, or in 3,4, or 5 note groupings etc. Play arpeggios up and scales down, or a mixture, and so forth. and of course practice the scale across the entire neck

among the excellent suggestions so far , I do see one point not being made: It's not really "muscle memory" you are building but "ear to muscle" memory: you want your fingers to connect with the sound you wish to make, more than simply executing physical pattern. Getting there is a very long term process. Listen carefully when you practice your scales , and know which quality of scale it is you are practicing of course. (why I don't think practicing on the couch in front of the TV is most effective - you ain't listening). Do the same with various interval shapes and arpeggios. Most importantly , realize that listening and hearing can also be practiced and improved. In the long run it may be the most important aspect.

It's a long term commitment but when you get there, it looks like this: