buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Every day, I try to play two octave chromatic scales, major scales, and arpeggios in different keys, two octaves up and down the neck as a warmup. It helps muscle memory.
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Muscle memory?
- Thread starter mjnyc
- Start date
Reading all these suggestions, it seems to me that they all tend towards the same goal of being able to play freely what's in your head. There are just many different approaches to getting there.
I think it's like having a map of your neighborhood in your mind. One person might say, take a one hour walk every day and always go the same route, looking at the stores on your way. Another might say take a random walk. A third could say choose one block and go around it multiple times, till it's ingrained in your memory, then choose a different block another day. And a fourth could say each day concentrate on one type of store (grocery, clothing etc) and remember where they are on a systematic walk.
At the end of the day (or a few weeks), you end up being able to answer the question "where exactly is the post office?".
Michael
PS Not to say that which method you choose is completely irrelevant. For one thing, I think we are all wired a bit differently, and one approach might be better for one person. And some approaches might be ok but less efficient.
mj
I think it's like having a map of your neighborhood in your mind. One person might say, take a one hour walk every day and always go the same route, looking at the stores on your way. Another might say take a random walk. A third could say choose one block and go around it multiple times, till it's ingrained in your memory, then choose a different block another day. And a fourth could say each day concentrate on one type of store (grocery, clothing etc) and remember where they are on a systematic walk.
At the end of the day (or a few weeks), you end up being able to answer the question "where exactly is the post office?".
Michael
PS Not to say that which method you choose is completely irrelevant. For one thing, I think we are all wired a bit differently, and one approach might be better for one person. And some approaches might be ok but less efficient.
mj
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I was speaking purely in the context of western music.
Wherein, there is the chromatic scale; everything else is just the chromatic scale with notes left out.
And the chromatic scale does exist naturally as it is assembled from stacking tones that are consonant with each other based on their frequency ratios. (octaves and fifths)
And your example of how a dominant/Mixolydian chord/scale fits within the context of many different scales is not the problem with my statement, it is the very point of my statement.
Hi Michael,
The thing that helped me along quickly and greatly is understanding the chord progressions in a given scale (maj-min-min-maj-maj-min-dim for a major scale). Because I now know the chord shapes inside those scales it has become A LOT easier to play the correct patterns - they always do fit within the scale the song is written in and at times you will even start messing around and improvising once you're thinking chords rather then patterns.
Progressing further will see you adding 7th chords. This is where the modes of the scale come into play but for now start with the basic major and minor shapes. The rest will grow on you.
Cheers, Marco
The thing that helped me along quickly and greatly is understanding the chord progressions in a given scale (maj-min-min-maj-maj-min-dim for a major scale). Because I now know the chord shapes inside those scales it has become A LOT easier to play the correct patterns - they always do fit within the scale the song is written in and at times you will even start messing around and improvising once you're thinking chords rather then patterns.
Progressing further will see you adding 7th chords. This is where the modes of the scale come into play but for now start with the basic major and minor shapes. The rest will grow on you.
Cheers, Marco
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Playing arpeggios up one and down the next, both up the neck and across a single position are favorite exercises of mine.(ie: CEGB,CAFD,EGBD,ECAF,GBDF,GECA,BDFA )
It truly brings chord/scale relationship into context.
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Exactly. His first exercises have you hammering the root, and while utterly simplistic, it accomplishes several things. You're making music without the tedium of scale practice, you're engaged with simple rhythms ( if you are unaccustomed to them ), you're able to start learning technique with relatively small physical demands, and you're given a foundation for moving on to octaves, chord tones, etc. and eventually more complex structures. For me it's been an excellent way to learn musical concepts without being tossed into deep water, so to speak.
Greetings Michael,
a quick aside 'Muscle Memory' = "Reflexes" in my mind.. ('Muscle memory' is not my favorite term if I am honest, other posters in this thread sum up a lot of my feelings about the term, but I get where you are coming from)
(1) anyhow what this tells me you have trained your scale reflexes for that certain pattern. (which is good)
Now to the get to the purple part (2) your scale-reflex = up and down. I and some of the other replies recommend programming some new reflexes. since you know your scale pattern in this sequence: try it out of sequence (think Circle of fifths, intervals, Maj/Min Arppegios etc...). when I first read the body of the OP, I thought you should practice the scale on one string instead of in one position (If you are doing the traditional one finger per fret scale style) then change strings so you can learn the scale on different strings..(and thus program new reflexes)
it is very helpful if you know the fretboard. this is imperative because; if you know where you are, and you know where you need to go, then you can formulate a plan/path to get there.
So yes to answer your question directly, it is indeed common IMO, and you need to put in the shed-time as well to overcome this. knowing 'scale patterns' dosent necessarily translate into knowledge of chord tones: so a study up on Harmony (Triads and 7th chords to start) will help to this end (in the short term) as well as some study on the circle of fifths there are some patterns in it which can be very useful for music's application.
Good Luck! and stay low!
I have practiced modes from time to time but I don't really think modally that much. The problem is there are too many possibilities to keep track off. Honestly I have never really fully memorized the modes required to function in harmonic and melodic minor, and my fluency in the seven standard modes varies with how much I practice them.
Playing the modes teaches you patterns, but to me it's generally just learning the major and natural minor keys inside and out. This is important for both your ears and your hands IMHO. The idea is learning/practicing the modes teaches you to hear all of the diatonic patterns (in your minds ear), and it also teaches you to play them (with your so called muscle memory). Also as you say there should be natural linkages between your "minds ear" and your "muscle memory." Ideally there would be a linkage with your ability to name the modes, imagine the sound in your "minds ear" and hum them aloud, play them effortlessly using "muscle memory," and also provide an in-depth description breaking each mode down by intervals and half-step/whole-step relationships, etc. But only true masters are really expected to be able to do all that and I certainly can't
Actually I feel some of the best training I did early in my development was from an out-of-print book by Beaver Felton titled Super Chops. It had a bunch of random and often unmusical 4-finger patterns (I used one finger per fret) The benefit of playing the patterns is they built hand strength, finger independence, speed, and also the exercises opened my ears to the possibilities of using non-diatonic tones. I believe Victor Wooten is quoted as saying something like, "You are never more than a half step away from a right note." IMHO the Beaver Felton exercises seemed to fit right in with this philosophy.
Ultimately I think practicing patterns is great, but it's important to engage your mind while your doing it. The problem is most people want to use patterns to completely disengage their minds. It's okay if you use patterns as a stop gap when you experience information overload, or even if you use patterns systematically in sort of a meta way. But IMHO it won't work if you try use patterns to simplify the music making process too much. If you want to use patterns, you have to know a bunch of patterns, and when specifically to use each of them; so it's complicated!
When I am playing my mind moves in and out of multiple different ways of thinking about the music. Using patterns is definitely one of them, but typically when I use a pattern I am linking the pattern to at least one other thought process, instead of relying just on the pattern to get by.
Chord symbols in particular have become an archetype that symbolically represents a fairly large library of knowledge that I can draw on using different mental processes. I might think of various box shapes that I associate with a chord symbols, I might think of the chord tones by name or sound, I might analyze the context of the chord and think about the key center I am in, I might analyze the chord in the key center and think about the flavor of the extensions I want to hit...do I want to play a -9 or natural 9? Do I want to play a minor 13 or major 13? (explanation the 9th translates down to the 2nd and the 13th translates down to the 6th). I might think of certain non-diatonic substitution strategies I might want to use to get to the next chord such a a tritone sub, upper or lower chromatic approach tone, or a chromatic surround.
I guess my point is you need to think of patterns as just one tool in your tool box. Ultimately there are many ways of thinking about the same task and IMHO you need to explore and learn to use a variety of these thought processes to become a competent musician. By covering the subject from multiple angles you learn it more thoroughly and can process it more fully and efficiently.
Or maybe the chromatic scale is just all other scales combined. Sort of a chicken and egg argument. Did the chromatic scale come first, or did all other scales come first. What does history actually say about the existence and usage of the chromatic scale in the current form?
My understanding is composers were using Major and Minor and at some point started using chromatiscm. But that's not to say that the chromatic scale was not in use earlier.
Regardless of whether the tones exist in nature, the scale is man made. First, we now use even temperament which changes the ratios, second man chose the ratios from an infinite array of possible ratios.
Using the logic you have presented so far, I could simply counter and say the the chromatic scale is a part of the larger quarter tone scale, and the context of western music is irrelevant.
Also, using your logic, the chromatic scale seems sort of a state of non-structure. Create a major scale and it has limits and structure. The notes are D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D. All of these notes are part of the chromatic scale, but it does not go the other way because the chromatic scale includes all 12 possible tones. There are 5 more non-diatonic tones that are part of the chromatic scale that are not part of the D Major. So IMHO D Major is a separate and distinct scale that stands on it's own.
You could think of it this way, D Major intersects with the Chromatic scale at 7 points. But you can't say they are the same scale. If you try to force D#,F,G#,A#,C on D Major, it's not allowed because these tones are non-diatonic to D Major. In other words, if you use any of these tones, you no longer have a pure D Major scale. That's not to say you can't skillfully use non-diatonic tones.
This argument seems pointless to me. I would just as soon let it go.
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Man did not "choose the ratios from and infinite array of possible ratios"
Fifths are perfect because they are consonant and do not beat.
Find the fifth of that fifth and the fifth of that fifth, and you will work your way around the 12 notes of the chromatic scale. (...not withstanding the later invention of even temperament of course.)
The chromatic scale is not an invention of man; eliminating certain notes while playing it is. Eliminating certain notes while playing the chromatic scale is the very foundation of harmonic theory in western music.
Here is Leonard Bernstein explaining it much better than I...
Okay, explain to me how you know which notes to play if you don't know the notes in a scale, please.
I'd have thought it would be obvious: focusing on chord construction by working through the standards. At the end, you'll have a good understanding of functional harmony, common chord progressions, and a decent enough repertoire to jam.
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Most bass players will tell you that the best walking bass line are more linear and less arpeggiated. So you need to know the scale/mode in addition to the chord.
Knowing chord tones does not tell you the proper non-chord tones...unless you are considering all extensions up to the 13th. Most charts only specify up to the 7th, so you need to consider the key center and scale to figure out the higher extensions.
Once you have your harmony sorted out, then absolutely. I'm definitely not suggesting that a person can get by without knowing their modes or scales. I'm just saying that when starting out, you're probably better served to focus on chord tones than scales, because they'll get you playing with others faster, which is where you'll REALLY start learning.
Also, I think that to craft a superior bassline, there are a LOT of things to be considered beyond the contour, such as the chord progression, the melody, whether you're on the head, who's soloing, and where they're taking it. Ultimately, I think that your goal should be to use your ears to and fingers to open up melodic avenues for the soloist to express themselves. You don't want to box them in harmonically, but you also don't want to force them outside if they're sticking to mixolydian over a V7, for example.
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I only have my frame of reference. I learned how to walk before I knew music theory. Then I took three semesters of classical music theory. Basically diatonic harmonization of the major and minor chords where we learned voice leading for the 7th chords.
About the same time I bought a Real Book and started figuring out how to interpret jazz chord notation with a bit of help from a mentor in the jazz guitar department. So my education taught me to build the 7th chords off of the key center, and when I play jazz my tendency is to try and relate the chords back to a key center. So for the most part I am probably what you would call an "inside player."
But often their is a certain ambiguity to some chords in jazz harmonic progression, meaning chords can be considered in multiple key centers or analyzed on different ways. Also many chords are difficult if not impossible to analyze as functional. Under these circumstances,you really can't say what all of the none chord tones should be, and you have to choose what to do.
As far as limiting the soloist. Well IMHO that's a bit of a dance. People say the best bass line is more linear rather than arpeggiated, but as soon as you start playing 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths you really sort of tying the soloist hands to some degree. Does this mean you should only play chord tones? I think not. But, some soloist will get mad when you play a V7 with a b9 even when it is clearly implied by the chord progression
. A truly skilled bassist would be able to hear and adapt in real time without any conscious effort. In other words, if the soloist plays an alteration, or one of the harmonic instruments like piano or guitar plays an alliteration, the bass player will hear and also make the change. But this should be a two way street where the other musicians hear and respond to the bass player's alterations as well. That's what i mean by "it's a bit of a dance." If a sax player just wants to blast the same major harmony licks over every set of ii V changes, then sorry but they deserve to
and 
a bit.
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I think we're arguing the same thingI only have my frame of reference. I learned how to walk before I knew music theory. Then I took three semester of classical music theory. Basically diatonic harmonization of the major and minor chords where we learned voice leading for the 7th chords.
About the same time I bought a Real Book and started figuring out how to interpret jazz chord notation with a bit of help from a mentor in the jazz guitar department. So my education taught me to build the 7th chords off of the key center, and when I play jazz my tendency is to try and relate the chords back to a key center. So for the most part I am probably what you would call an "inside player."
But often their is a certain ambiguity to some chords in jazz harmonic progression, meaning chords can be considered in multiple key centers or analyzed on different ways. Also many chords are difficult if not impossible to analyze as functional. Under these circumstances,you really can't say what all of the none chord tones should be, and you have to choose what to do.
As far as limiting the soloist. Well IMHO that's a bit of a dance. People say the best bass line is more linear rather than arpeggiated, but as soon as you start playing 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths you really sort of tying the soloist hands to some degree. Does this mean you should only play chord tones? I think not. But, some soloist will get mad when you play a V7 with a b9 even when it is clearly implied by the chord progression
A truly skilled bassist would be able to hear and adapt in real time without any conscious effort. In other words, if the soloist plays an alteration, or one of the harmonic instruments like piano or guitar plays an alliteration, the bass player will hear and also make the change. But this should be a two way street where the other musicians hear and respond to the bass player's alterations as well. That's what i mean by "it's a bit of a dance." If a sax player just wants to blast the same major harmony licks over every set of ii V changes, then sorry but they deserve to
This needs restating because it's SUPER SUPER important. Thanks for saying it so well
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It isn't at all obvious. Having been classically trained, I see scales as the basis. Every chord is based on a scale.
So I still contend that understanding scales is required to understand a chord.
So if you tell someone who doesn't know scales to play all the notes in a Cm7 chord, how will they know which notes to play?
I agree that to understand how a chord works within the context of a scale you need to know what a scale is, but to know how a chord works within a song, you need your ears and to know how a chord sounds/feels on your instrument.
