Muscle memory?

[MVE]

I only have my frame of reference. I learned how to walk before I knew music theory. Then I took three semesters of classical music theory. Basically diatonic harmonization of the major and minor chords where we learned voice leading for the 7th chords.

About the same time I bought a Real Book and started figuring out how to interpret jazz chord notation with a bit of help from a mentor in the jazz guitar department. So my education taught me to build the 7th chords off of the key center, and when I play jazz my tendency is to try and relate the chords back to a key center. So for the most part I am probably what you would call an "inside player."

But often their is a certain ambiguity to some chords in jazz harmonic progression, meaning chords can be considered in multiple key centers or analyzed on different ways. Also many chords are difficult if not impossible to analyze as functional. Under these circumstances,you really can't say what all of the none chord tones should be, and you have to choose what to do.

As far as limiting the soloist. Well IMHO that's a bit of a dance. People say the best bass line is more linear rather than arpeggiated, but as soon as you start playing 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths you really sort of tying the soloist hands to some degree. Does this mean you should only play chord tones? I think not. But, some soloist will get mad when you play a V7 with a b9 even when it is clearly implied by the chord progression .

A truly skilled bassist would be able to hear and adapt in real time without any conscious effort. In other words, if the soloist plays an alteration, or one of the harmonic instruments like piano or guitar plays an alliteration, the bass player will hear and also make the change. But this should be a two way street where the other musicians hear and respond to the bass player's alterations as well. That's what i mean by "it's a bit of a dance." If a sax player just wants to blast the same major harmony licks over every set of ii V changes, then sorry but they deserve to and a bit.

Wasnex,
Respectfully, your entire post is an explanation of exactly what I meant when I said, ‘when it really comes down to it there is only one scale.’

Ambiguity in harmonic progression, altered chords, passing tones in linear phrases, etc.. are all mechanisms that roost apart from the diatonic scale, or any scale for that matter, except the chromatic scale.

I am in no way trying to argue with anything you have said, only trying to explain what I meant.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Wasnex,
Respectfully, your entire post is an explanation of exactly what I meant when I said, ‘when it really comes down to it there is only one scale.’

Ambiguity in harmonic progression, altered chords, passing tones in linear phrases, etc.. are all mechanisms that roost apart from the diatonic scale, or any scale for that matter, except the chromatic scale.

I am in no way trying to argue with anything you have said, only trying to explain what I meant.

You can't shoehorn everything into a diatonic framework any more than you can explain it away with "it's the chromatic scale"... A lot of the "ambiguity" you talk about comes from harmonizing other scales, i.e. Half/Whole Diminished, Whole tone, Melodic Minor etc. The chromatic explanation doesn't work for me because it's like saying the difference between a book by Stephen King and Charles Dickens is the Alphabet. That's not an explanation at all.

Most bass players will tell you that the best walking bass line are more linear and less arpeggiated. So you need to know the scale/mode in addition to the chord.

Knowing chord tones does not tell you the proper non-chord tones...unless you are considering all extensions up to the 13th. Most charts only specify up to the 7th, so you need to consider the key center and scale to figure out the higher extensions.

You're one of the few people on Talkbass who seems to understand music from a performance point of view. There's a lot binary thinking that goes on here, still unabated, and without the acknowledgement that it takes EVERYTHING to create music and it just feels like arguments from people who mainly read about music, and not perform it. It's Not just arpeggios. Not just scales. One guy even said chord tones are more useful than scale tones. How is that even possible when everything, including the totality of harmony comes from scales?

 

[WrapRough]

I'm in a similar position to you, OP. A few things that are helping me:

Saying the note names out loud (not in my head) as I play them has helped me get out of thinking of them as just a pattern. It massively helps with learning your fretboard, too.

Same as above but on single string only.

As has been suggested, playing scales in all different permutations: 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths, and then also 1,2,3, 2,3,4, 3,4,5,5,6,7,6,7,8. Also the reverse of that, and then also forward up, backwards down. This really helps understanding the scale degrees. Sometimes I also call out the degrees instead of the note names, and close my eyes to try and build those associations. It's slowly going but I think over time it will all soak in!

Also, find a jam track and just jam. Try just two notes from the scale, then 3, then 4 etc.

This has been my biggest focus, as i had always been a pattern player. You can you get quite far with patterns and I think we should try and find patterns in things as it helps us play more subconsciously, but they can definitely become a crutch and end up holding you back if you dont actually understand what you're doing, which I definitely didn't

Very interesting thread with lots of great theory info here!

 

[MVE]

You can't shoehorn everything into a diatonic framework any more than you can explain it away with "it's the chromatic scale"... A lot of the "ambiguity" you talk about comes from harmonizing other scales, i.e. Half/Whole Diminished, Whole tone, Melodic Minor etc. The chromatic explanation doesn't work for me because it's like saying the difference between a book by Stephen King and Charles Dickens is the Alphabet. That's not an explanation at all.



You're one of the few people on Talkbass who seems to understand music from a performance point of view. There's a lot binary thinking that goes on here, still unabated, and without the acknowledgement that it takes EVERYTHING to create music and it just feels like arguments from people who mainly read about music, and not perform it. It's Not just arpeggios. Not just scales. One guy even said chord tones are more useful than scale tones. How is that even possible when everything, including the totality of harmony comes from scales?

All I was trying to say is that when I am improvising a bass line or trying to make up a melodic phrase, I am playing one of twelve notes; the note I just played is one of twelve notes, and the next note I am going to play is going to be one of twelve notes. That’s it.
Now why is that an objectionable description? (And if accuse me of “oversimplifying it.” I’ll take that as a compliment. )

 

[Spin Doctor]

All I was trying to say is that when I am improvising a bass line or trying to make up a melodic phrase, I am playing one of twelve notes; the note I just played is one of twelve notes, and the next note I am going to play is going to be one of twelve notes. That’s it.
Now why is that an objectionable description? (And if accuse me of “oversimplifying it.” I’ll take that as a compliment. )

It's not objectionable. Just not useful.
I'm going to spell a word. I'll pick one letter. Then I'll pick another letter, and so on.

So what have we learned from that? Well, pretty much nothing except that we use letters to spell words. Now, there's no requirement here to have every post generate some great insight, but it would be nice to have at least some useful info come out of it. It's all good though. However you want to see it is fine.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I have a question about muscle memory and scales.

So I'm learning the pentatonic patterns up and down the fretboard. At this point I can visualize in my head the patterns, and when I choose to play one, I play the notes as I see the pattern in my head.

After I've played one of these scale patterns for a bunch of times, I can play that same pattern basically just with "muscle memory", without having to visualize the whole pattern, just sort of automatically.

This works well for a scale up and down. But if I want to jump around that same pattern for a line or a solo, at this point I'm not able to use muscle memory, since that memory was tied to a scale up and down. I have to go back to seeing the pattern to choose the notes.

My question: is this just a matter of time and practice, and does muscle memory kick in for moving all around the pattern, or is this a common issue?

Many many thanks

Michael

What you're doing is fine and is a huge part of the process that many high level players use to build vocabulary and get to the point of "knowing" material they can use vice just remembering it. Repetition is key. Janek Gwizdala is a Grammy award winning musician who advocates this EXACT same philosophy. THESE are the people you need to get your information and knowledge from. Not random people on the internet.

 

[WrapRough]

What you're doing is fine and is a huge part of the process that many high level players use to build vocabulary and get to the point of "knowing" material they can use vice just remembering it. Repetition is key. Janek Gwizdala is a Grammy award winning musician who advocates this EXACT same philosophy. THESE are the people you need to get your information and knowledge from. Not random people on the internet.

Thanks for this video, very interesting stuff.

 

[mjnyc]

Janek Gwizdala is a Grammy award winning musician who advocates this EXACT same philosophy.

Yes, I really like this video.

Michael

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I agree that to understand how a chord works within the context of a scale you need to know what a scale is, but to know how a chord works within a song, you need your ears and to know how a chord sounds/feels on your instrument.

I totally agree with this. And, I've been thinking about it and maybe I was over-simplifying it. I think what the original concept was that chord notes should not be ignored. With that, I agree.