Music Man sound and pickups

[JfetPre775]

Couldn't agree more - I can't get a bad tone out of my MMSR 3-band. Sure it's a bit spendy, but there is comfort in knowing you'll only have to spend once.

Yah absolutely, I’ve had multiple electronics configurations in different basses. And while an Aguilar obp-3 is by far the most well known and there’s never a problem finding one stocked everywhere.. I’ve had basses that sounded just plain sour with em’ and was running it passive-bypassed 90% of the time.. That’s never happened with an East, In fact the J-East stuff is so good it enhances sounds & comparatively makes the pure passive sounds seem lacking, like it’s missing something crucial..

 

[JfetPre775]

Anybody have experience or thoughts on the Aguilar MM-Pickup models..? It appears they offer an exposed pole-piece Alnico type & an epoxy sealed/covered Ceramic type..
I’ve rounded out my choices for the damaged Nordstrand MM5.2 replacement to;
Delano MC 5 He/s
Delano MC 5 FE
Aguilar DCB-M5
Ive considered another identical Nordy, as well as one of their “unique” designs Big-SplitMan, Blademan, Singleman, But I just don’t have enough info, or confidence in what I’d be getting going that route.. But man, they’re certainly damn cool looking! IMHO The Nordy big-singles are likely the greatest innovation to come to bass guitar pickup design & sound reproduction in 20 yrs at least…

 

[-Boscoe-]

I paired the Aguilar DCB-M4 with a John East MMSR 3-band in my SBMM Ray4. I love the neck and feel of that bass but the stock pickup was just too hot and unbalanced. Given that I had also bought a SBMM Ray34 I decided I wanted to do something different with my tone for that bass so I wanted a pickup that gave me another sound.

That all said, the DCB-M4 does not sound to me like a Stingray pickup. It positively sings. I paired it with Ernie Ball Cobalt Flats and it has a very melodic, almost orchestral tone. I don't know how to describe it, but it's awesome. Maybe the best way I can describe it is that I feel that the sounds generated are broader - more lows and more highs.

I mean, it's still a bass but it's a very different tone, especially compared with the stock pickup which was boomy on the low end and thin on the high end. The irony was that I had been playing the Ray34 almost exclusively and the Ray4 was going to be my playground, but after I put in the MMSR/DCB-M4 I stopped playing the Ray34 very much - at least until I bought my Ibanez Affirma and now I can't put that down, but that's mostly due to the ergonomics and not the tone.

So, that said, I would NOT recommend the DCB-M5 if you're looking to sound just like a Stingray. Perhaps look at the AG-5M. That's their Stingray equivalent.

 

[JfetPre775]

I paired the Aguilar DCB-M4 with a John East MMSR 3-band in my SBMM Ray4. I love the neck and feel of that bass but the stock pickup was just too hot and unbalanced. Given that I had also bought a SBMM Ray34 I decided I wanted to do something different with my tone for that bass so I wanted a pickup that gave me another sound.

That all said, the DCB-M4 does not sound to me like a Stingray pickup. It positively sings. I paired it with Ernie Ball Cobalt Flats and it has a very melodic, almost orchestral tone. I don't know how to describe it, but it's awesome. Maybe the best way I can describe it is that I feel that the sounds generated are broader - more lows and more highs.

I mean, it's still a bass but it's a very different tone, especially compared with the stock pickup which was boomy on the low end and thin on the high end. The irony was that I had been playing the Ray34 almost exclusively and the Ray4 was going to be my playground, but after I put in the MMSR/DCB-M4 I stopped playing the Ray34 very much - at least until I bought my Ibanez Affirma and now I can't put that down, but that's mostly due to the ergonomics and not the tone.

So, that said, I would NOT recommend the DCB-M5 if you're looking to sound just like a Stingray. Perhaps look at the AG-5M. That's their Stingray equivalent.

Hmm.. Right, Okay So.. Darn it just when it seems like I’ve reached a relative place of clarity about what I’m looking for and what makes it that way. I get feedback or input such as advice via your post, and suddenly the picture seems very unclear..
-So the thing about your DCB-M description that kinda threw me was you said “it doesn’t sound like a stingray”.
Now I should be clear I’m not shooting for a pickup reengineered from a prized old school stingray bass & perfectly captures that exact sound “mojo” and all. No, In fact I’m actually going for something a bit more like Flea’s graphite Modulus with (an active??) Lane Poor + 2b Aguilar.. Im not interested in trying to create a Flea Modulus clone. Just providing a general idea of how I play a MM type bass physically & stylistically.. I dig in & play really hard often and I especially love characteristics like; *Very present and upfront fingerstyle ghost notes/rhythmic muted 16ths. *Fast, Dynamically responsive attack that jumps out differently depending how aggressively you play but you don’t need to beat it to death. Think of a syncopated 16th note Rocco Prestia/Jaco fingerstyle funk line with a bunch of heavy accents on both ghost/pitched notes at differing points in the beat. The best MM pickup can growl and responds very much like slap/popped notes if you play the high strings loud enough.. I hope at least part of this makes sense enough for you to rule the Ceramic Aguilar in or out.. Thx!

 

[Videojunkie]

My bass with Seymour Duncan MM Ceramics and their 3-band preamp gets pretty aggressive when you dig in and start popping strings. It reminds me very much of the EBMM HH that I modeled it after.

 

[Kleebs]

I've got a John East MMSR 3-band waiting for me when I get home from work today. Very impressed with shipment, only took 3 days from the UK to Ohio. The pickup I ordered from a US vendor simultaneously is still waiting to leave their warehouse. This is going in a SBMM Ray 5. Can't wait to give it a whirl.

 

[BQFS]

Music Man sound and pickups

I feel there are 3 main attributes that contribute to the tone of a Music Man.
1. The larger humbucking (or dual coil) style pickup
2. The ‘sweet spot’ placing of that pickup
3. The EBMM preamp

I am a retired electronics technician, two degrees and over 50 years experience modifying basses and amps. I have also been playing bass for over 50 years. The bass I have owned the longest is a 1977 Stingray. My most recent purchase is a 2020 BFR Stingray Special fretless 5 string.

To fill the gap left by companies who used to market versions of the original pre-EB Stingray preamp, I had circuit boards professionally made and use high quality components, including a clone of the original (60+ year old) 4250 opamp. I sell these preamps on the usual sites, including the Talkbass classifieds.

The old 2-band preamp is unique. As Tony P accurately described above, the sound comes from the combination of pickup and preamp. One or the other will NOT do the job. Leo designed the pickup/preamp combination by trial and error, which explains why the controls have no center detent and why some people think the preamp only provides boost. I go into more detail and explain all this in my ad for the preamp.

I specialize, mostly for fun and some minor profit, in upgrading Sterling by MusicMan (SBMM) Ray4 and Ray5 basses by upgrading the pickup and preamp, defretting the bass, and "murdering" them by changing the chrome hardware to black. I generally defret the bass because there are no high quality fretless MM-style basses under $600. Depending upon model and style, I usually resell these for anywhere between $499 and $599. I sell the preamp, fully wired and tested, with all controls and battery clip for $99 (free shipping).

I started doing this because my own 2013 Ray4 was light and fun to play, but had awful tone. The pickup was WAY too hot and the preamp prone to distortion. Replacing pickup and preamp turned it into a great sounding, great playing bass.

A while ago, LowEndLobster, my favorite YouTube bass reviewer, had a shootout to determine which drop-in replacement pickup recreated the sound of the original Stingray Alnico pickup most accurately. He came up with two, and I have since found another one.

He found, and I completely agree, that the two best are the Aguilar 4M (for Ray4s) and the Nordstrand MM4.2 (Ray4s) and 5.2 (Ray5s). Recently Guitar Fetish got their excellent KP - GFS MM Pro Plus pickup (Ray4s only) with Alnico magnet which comes in at $38 plus shipping, less than half the cost of either the Aguilar and Nordstrand.

I have been doing these mods in one form or another since 2013 and have had nothing but excellent reviews.

I will be glad to answer any questions on any of these things. Just PM me. - Bud

 

[micguy]

In general EBMM preamps appear to have more an effect on the natural tone of the bass then say several other after marked preamps (Ex: Bartolini, Aguliar, ect)

When the tone controls are in their middle positions, the 'Ray preamps are far from flat - they're very scooped.

 

[Wood and Wire]

which explains why the controls have no center detent and why some people think the preamp only provides boost.

I imagine a lot of people think that, because both the guy who actually designed the preamp, and his godson (who happens to own the company, and who was the creator of the 3 band EQ preamp) publicly stated that the 2 band EQ is boost only.

 

[BQFS]

I imagine a lot of people think that, because both the guy who actually designed the preamp, and his godson (who happens to own the company, and who was the creator of the 3 band EQ preamp) publicly stated that the 2 band EQ is boost only.

No idea where you get your info from. I publish the response curves in my ad. You can see for yourself that it is both boost and cut. Science beats myth and rumor every time. BTW, when I say that that is how Leo designed it, I don't mean that literally. It's easier to put that in an add than go on a whole trip to explain who did what to whom when nobody truly cares. It's the sound, the tone that matters long after the designers are long gone.

 

[Wood and Wire]

No idea where you get your info from.

Literally from the person that designed it, and backed up several years later by the person that owns the company, and created the "improved" version - explaining what was changed, and why, and how to make the two sound identical.

 

[mcnach]

Literally from the person that designed it, and backed up several years later by the person that owns the company, and created the "improved" version - explaining what was changed, and why, and how to make the two sound identical.

We have hearsay on one hand saying the bass is boost only (some recollection of events by a person, but without any context whatsoever), and on the other we have published measurements and the manuals from that era saying the bass is cut and boost...

I'd trust measurements all day long.

Music Man Bass Global - 1978 Hangtag Manual

 

[Wood and Wire]

We have hearsay on one hand saying the bass is boost only (some recollection of events by a person, but without any context whatsoever), and on the other we have published measurements and the manuals from that era saying the bass is cut and boost...

I'd trust measurements all day long.

Music Man Bass Global - 1978 Hangtag Manual

There's also the manual from the 80's Sabre which contradicts that hang-tag, stating that the 2band is boost only, and the optional 3band is cut & boost.

This whole topic has been batted around endlessly - even Music Man marketing can't make up their mind.

If you can be bother to search through my old posts (I really can't be bothered to find it, having had this debate so many times) I posted a direct quote from Sterling Ball, and also posted a link to his explanation on the EB forum.

Unfortunately, in the intervening years, EBMM have changed web servers, or migrated the whole platform, or something - as the links to the old forum no longer work, but his quotes are still up.

 

[BQFS]

There is no debate. Everyone that buys my preamps loves them. I stand by my published analysis. If you don't believe it, buy one and do the analysis yourself. You don't need a spectrum analyzer or an oscilloscope to hear the boost and cut with your ears. What counts, in my book, is what it sounds like. Isn't that what matters? Some people just love to be "right fighters." Believe whatever you want, but leave me out of it. I have no desire to debate this.

My preamp comes with a one year parts and labor warranty. If it doesn't perform like I claim it does, I will cheerfully refund your money, less shipping.

 

[mcnach]

There's also the manual from the 80's Sabre which contradicts that hang-tag, stating that the 2band is boost only, and the optional 3band is cut & boost.

This whole topic has been batted around endlessly - even Music Man marketing can't make up their mind.

If you can be bother to search through my old posts (I really can't be bothered to find it, having had this debate so many times) I posted a direct quote from Sterling Ball, and also posted a link to his explanation on the EB forum.

Unfortunately, in the intervening years, EBMM have changed web servers, or migrated the whole platform, or something - as the links to the old forum no longer work, but his quotes are still up.

I'd rather get direct measurements, you know?
Ultimately is of no serious consequence, believe what you will. I trust measurements :shrug:

 

[Stevorebob]

I found this video and it’s graphs instructive: .
I’m sure it’s been posted here or in one of the StingRay threads before. I can’t imagine it hasn’t.

The graphs:

Quick summary:

• 3-band and 2-band both are bass and treble boost and cut
• 3-band has a 70Hz HPF; 2-band has no HPF
• 3-band always has a spike at 4kHz; 2-band only has that spike with the treble boosted
• 3-band rolls off ultra-highs sooner than 2-band

Not my video, not my findings, but this does mirror my experience with 2- and 3-band StingRays.

 

[Wood and Wire]

There is no debate. Everyone that buys my preamps loves them. I stand by my published analysis. If you don't believe it, buy one and do the analysis yourself. You don't need a spectrum analyzer or an oscilloscope to hear the boost and cut with your ears. What counts, in my book, is what it sounds like. Isn't that what matters? Some people just love to be "right fighters." Believe whatever you want, but leave me out of it. I have no desire to debate this.

My preamp comes with a one year parts and labor warranty. If it doesn't perform like I claim it does, I will cheerfully refund your money, less shipping.

Well that's a terrific sales pitch...

I'm sure your preamp sounds great, but you're not Tom Walker, and you're not Sterling Ball - you're a guy making, and selling his own interpretation of an original preamp Tom designed, and Sterling manufacturers.

There are other forums where competent electrical engineers have dissected the 2band preamp, and come to the conclusion that it is fundamentally boost only, but that towards the lowest extreme of the treble control, a treble bleed is introduced, acting as a hf noise filter.

I've know competent EE's who've come to similar conclusions.

I seem to remember John East talking about his 2band preamp (possibly even here on TalkBass), which many people herald as indistinguishable from the original, saying that in fact he'd modified it's functionality, retaining the boost only bass operation, but making the treble control (50-50?) cut / boost.

Again, I'm in no way bashing your product.

 

[Wood and Wire]

I'd rather get direct measurements, you know?
Ultimately is of no serious consequence, believe what you will. I trust measurements :shrug:

 

[mcnach]

View attachment 5316914

By measurements I mean this kind of thing:

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/music-man-sound-and-pickups.739218/page-60#post-28114186

What you do with that information is entirely up to you.

 

[mcnach]

Well that's a terrific sales pitch...

I'm sure your preamp sounds great, but you're not Tom Walker, and you're not Sterling Ball - you're a guy making, and selling his own interpretation of an original preamp Tom designed, and Sterling manufacturers.

There are other forums where competent electrical engineers have dissected the 2band preamp, and come to the conclusion that it is fundamentally boost only, but that towards the lowest extreme of the treble control, a treble bleed is introduced, acting as a hf noise filter.

I've know competent EE's who've come to similar conclusions.

I seem to remember John East talking about his 2band preamp (possibly even here on TalkBass), which many people herald as indistinguishable from the original, saying that in fact he'd modified it's functionality, retaining the boost only bass operation, but making the treble control (50-50?) cut / boost.

Again, I'm in no way bashing your product.

That's interesting, for I have one of his Stingray preamps in my originally 2-band Stingray. But he also made the volume a push/pull preamp bypass switch, at my request.

The bass control is most definitely cut and boost on that one. It's easy to check thanks to the bypass switch.

See what I mean about trusting measurements rather than people's memories?

Like I said before, this is all very inconsequential. It troubles me not at all what you choose to believe. The information is out there, use it as you see fit.