Music Man sound and pickups

[mcnach]

What use would centre detents have on a 2 band preamp? They'd have absolutely no bearing on the function.

for reference.

 

[Wood and Wire]

When I sit down to play my two band StingRays it's really nice to be able to quickly figure out the middle of the range using a detent. Am I allowed to have a personal preference?

I’m simply pointing out that the reason the 3 band EQ has a centre detent, is not because there’s a 50% value; it’s unity gain, where the preamp is neither boosting, nor cutting the frequency range.

It has a 100% cut range, and a 100% boost range (ie 100% of XdB) each having 50% throw of the pot.

I’d hate for you, or anyone else to waste the time, and money doing an invasive modification of their 2 band preamp, under the assumption that it would mean that the detent equated to unity gain, or 50% boost.

 

[-Boscoe-]

I’m simply pointing out that the reason the 3 band EQ has a centre detent, is not because there’s a 50% value; it’s unity gain, where the preamp is neither boosting, nor cutting the frequency range.

It has a 100% cut range, and a 100% boost range (ie 100% of XdB) each having 50% throw of the pot.

I’d hate for you, or anyone else to waste the time, and money doing an invasive modification of their 2 band preamp, under the assumption that it would mean that the detent equated to unity gain, or 50% boost.

And I wasn’t talking about any of that. I just answered his question (for 2 bands).

He has a MM StingRay from the 90s, so it’s not an Old Smoothie. Unless my understanding of StingRay genealogy is wrong it has pots with center detents, which he is looking to replace, thus my request.

You seem knowledgeable, do you know a vendor that sells those pots in lots less than 500? Thanks.

 

[Wood and Wire]

I just answered his question (for 2 bands).

He has a MM StingRay from the 90s, so it’s not an Old Smoothie. Unless my understanding of StingRay genealogy is wrong it has pots with center detents, which he is looking to replace, thus my request.

Only the 3 band has ever had centre detents; the 2 band has never had them, as they would bear no relationship to the functionality of the preamp.


BTW, @Leigh Semmens question seems to be about his son in law's dual humbucker (2 H) StingRay, rather than 2 band preamp - though confusingly he says it's from the 90's, which is about a decade before the HH StingRay was introduced.

Either the date is wrong, or it's a Sabre.

 

[Leigh Semmens]

Could be the date is wrong, We did look it up, but I might be mistaken. I'll ask him when next I see him

 

[Leigh Semmens]

I was wrong on one count it's a single 'bucker from '94.

 

[BassLife77]

I am a retired electronics technician, two degrees and over 50 years experience modifying basses and amps. I have also been playing bass for over 50 years. The bass I have owned the longest is a 1977 Stingray. My most recent purchase is a 2020 BFR Stingray Special fretless 5 string.

To fill the gap left by companies who used to market versions of the original pre-EB Stingray preamp, I had circuit boards professionally made and use high quality components, including a clone of the original (60+ year old) 4250 opamp. I sell these preamps on the usual sites, including the Talkbass classifieds.

The old 2-band preamp is unique. As Tony P accurately described above, the sound comes from the combination of pickup and preamp. One or the other will NOT do the job. Leo designed the pickup/preamp combination by trial and error, which explains why the controls have no center detent and why some people think the preamp only provides boost. I go into more detail and explain all this in my ad for the preamp.

I specialize, mostly for fun and some minor profit, in upgrading Sterling by MusicMan (SBMM) Ray4 and Ray5 basses by upgrading the pickup and preamp, defretting the bass, and "murdering" them by changing the chrome hardware to black. I generally defret the bass because there are no high quality fretless MM-style basses under $600. Depending upon model and style, I usually resell these for anywhere between $499 and $599. I sell the preamp, fully wired and tested, with all controls and battery clip for $99 (free shipping).

I started doing this because my own 2013 Ray4 was light and fun to play, but had awful tone. The pickup was WAY too hot and the preamp prone to distortion. Replacing pickup and preamp turned it into a great sounding, great playing bass.

A while ago, LowEndLobster, my favorite YouTube bass reviewer, had a shootout to determine which drop-in replacement pickup recreated the sound of the original Stingray Alnico pickup most accurately. He came up with two, and I have since found another one.

He found, and I completely agree, that the two best are the Aguilar 4M (for Ray4s) and the Nordstrand MM4.2 (Ray4s) and 5.2 (Ray5s). Recently Guitar Fetish got their excellent KP - GFS MM Pro Plus pickup (Ray4s only) with Alnico magnet which comes in at $38 plus shipping, less than half the cost of either the Aguilar and Nordstrand.

I have been doing these mods in one form or another since 2013 and have had nothing but excellent reviews.

I will be glad to answer any questions on any of these things. Just PM me. - Bud

I built several Stingray and Sabre preamps and found out the Sabre build sounds better. It has a 1nF cap in the tone stack instead of 500pF and the mids sound better. Also they used the LM4250 only because of its low current draw because the first Stingrays always stayed on. There are a lot better opamps like the LT1351

 

[BQFS]

I built several Stingray and Sabre preamps and found out the Sabre build sounds better. It has a 1nF cap in the tone stack instead of 500pF and the mids sound better. Also they used the LM4250 only because of its low current draw because the first Stingrays always stayed on. There are a lot better opamps like the LT1351

Sound is subjective. What sounds better to you may not to someone else. The original Stingray preamp was a seat-of-the-pants design. The 4250 was not chosen solely for low current draw. It was also chosen because it's poor slew rate enabled the circuit to roll off the high frequencies without circuitry. The 1351 is certainly more modern, but it isn't necessarily "better." It depends on what you mean by "better." Everyone who has bought one of my clones of the original loves the tone, antique op amp or not.

 

[-Boscoe-]

Sound is subjective. What sounds better to you may not to someone else. The original Stingray preamp was a seat-of-the-pants design. The 4250 was not chosen solely for low current draw. It was also chosen because it's poor slew rate enabled the circuit to roll off the high frequencies without circuitry. The 1351 is certainly more modern, but it isn't necessarily "better." It depends on what you mean by "better."

Exactly. Leo knew what he was doing and he could have easily used a Baxandall style design if he just wanted a preamp.

The fact that he didn’t, and that he also used a different pickup design makes it very clear that his choices were deliberate and not just cost saving.

 

[BQFS]

Exactly. Leo knew what he was doing and he could have easily used a Baxandall style design if he just wanted a preamp.

The fact that he didn’t, and that he also used a different pickup design makes it very clear that his choices were deliberate and not just cost saving.

Nice to meet you. If I am correct, you also make preamps for Stingray-like basses. I've been doing that for a couple of years. I'm a retired electronics tech who is also a bass player, and for over 30 years my '77 Ray was my only bass.

I got started building preamps when I got sick and tired of the pickup and preamp in my 2013 SUB 4. I unoriginally wanted to make my SUB sound more like my "real" Ray which I could no longer play due to lower back surgery. The plans for the old criginal pre-EB circuit was all over the 'Net. I haven't changed the design any, but I have been working on increasing flexibility and reliability. The next version will incorporate some SMD components as well as screw terminals on the ends. It's fun and keeps my mind engaged.

Anyway, I hope I have introduced myself to the correct person....

Bud

 

[-Boscoe-]

Yep, that’s me! Great to meet you as well.

 

[Wood and Wire]

Exactly. Leo knew what he was doing and he could have easily used a Baxandall style design if he just wanted a preamp.

The fact that he didn’t, and that he also used a different pickup design makes it very clear that his choices were deliberate and not just cost saving.

Thomas Walker.

 

[Tight and Tasty]

Hi Brains trust.
I have a question regarding the Seymore Duncan ceramic pu and pre amp bundle with 3 band eq which I’m considering dropping into a late 90s EB MM SR 5 H
Long story short the original pu and pre have died and are (I’m told) unrevivable. MM do not stock replacements anymore so I need an alternative fix. The Seymore Duncan system seems like a good option for retaining that original sound, however there is one thing that is giving me cause for concern. It says on the website blurb “ not for use with Music Man basses with a 3 way blade switch”
Can anyone tell me why?
Is it something to do with the original pre amp making up for different outputs of the series, parallel and single coil switch positions? I do quite like that option of tone changes.
If I installed it with switchable configurations would I have to fiddle around with volume knob to get unity gain? Or just choose a configuration with no switch and be a one trick pony?
The Seymore website doesn’t seem to offer any other info and no contact details I can email to ask the question.
I’m open to other suggestions, however I’m limited to what I can get me hands on down in Australia
Thanks in advance

 

[mcnach]

Hi Brains trust.
I have a question regarding the Seymore Duncan ceramic pu and pre amp bundle with 3 band eq which I’m considering dropping into a late 90s EB MM SR 5 H
Long story short the original pu and pre have died and are (I’m told) unrevivable. MM do not stock replacements anymore so I need an alternative fix. The Seymore Duncan system seems like a good option for retaining that original sound, however there is one thing that is giving me cause for concern. It says on the website blurb “ not for use with Music Man basses with a 3 way blade switch”
Can anyone tell me why?
Is it something to do with the original pre amp making up for different outputs of the series, parallel and single coil switch positions? I do quite like that option of tone changes.
If I installed it with switchable configurations would I have to fiddle around with volume knob to get unity gain? Or just choose a configuration with no switch and be a one trick pony?
The Seymore website doesn’t seem to offer any other info and no contact details I can email to ask the question.
I’m open to other suggestions, however I’m limited to what I can get me hands on down in Australia
Thanks in advance

I find it very hard to believe that BOTH preamp and pickup went bad. That would be lottery winning probabilities... I'd look for another opinion, from somebody knowledgeable, before looking into replacements.

 

[Tight and Tasty]

Like I said it’s a long story but a series of inept soldering efforts (not by me I hasten to add) have fried the pre. The pu still works but no good without the pre hence my predicament.

 

[mcnach]

Like I said it’s a long story but a series of inept soldering efforts (not by me I hasten to add) have fried the pre. The pu still works but no good without the pre hence my predicament.

ouch...

but the pickup should be fine then, at least, with a different preamp or even passively. I can't help with the switch but you could always remove the preamp and the switch, and wire a new switch for series/parallel, and the output from that into a preamp of your choice. I personally like the John East MMSR very much, the 3-band with the semiparametric mids control. I put one of those on my 2002 Stingray, and on various other basses over the years.

 

[BobKos]

Like I said it’s a long story but a series of inept soldering efforts (not by me I hasten to add) have fried the pre. The pu still works but no good without the pre hence my predicament.

I would get the original pre fixed. That is NOT a complex circuit board. I am a hobbyist electronics hack and I have fixed worse. I am sure a pro could fix it up no problem. If you cant find someone local reach out on youtube to 'Northridge Fix' Watch some of his videos. He makes it look easy.

 

[Tight and Tasty]

Hi All ,
Here’s an update. I did get another opinion, this time from someone who was recommended to me -too be fair, all the other guys were recommended but in this case this guy really knew what he was doing and his interest was piqued and fixed right in front of me.
He studied the board for a bit, then gently removed dodgy wiring, soldering etc. Then reinstalled wiring and connected everything up.
Now here’s the kicker, after all that it seems that the plastic battery compartment had perished somewhat and the terminals at the back weren’t staying in place, so its entirely possible that this was the root of the problem not the preamp! No matter, the broken plastic was removed and a standard 9v battery terminal was wired in. He also replaced the original sometimes noisy jack with a standard TRS jack.
Hey presto everything works as it should.
The moral of the story- always get a second opinion…or third…
Needless to say, it’s a great result all round- my 25 year love affair with this Ray is reaffirmed, and I had an excellent excuse to purchase a shiny new Sadowsky PJ while I was trying bring the Ray back to life. Happy Days.
Thanks to all who chimed in with ideas on this thread and the SR5 club.

 

[Rusty Chainsaw]

Apologies if this has been discussed earlier in this thread (this thread is huge), but does anyone have suggestions for replacement pickups that are made like the Bongo pickups? I know the Bongo's pickups are neodymium, and the only pickup manufacturer I've found who makes aftermarket neo pickups is Q-Tuner. I see they make their neo pickups in an MM shape, but I have no idea if they sound the part.

I've got the 4-band EQ covered - Noll from Germany will make one with the proper frequency centres. Trickfish also do a 4-band, but they can't change the frequencies to match the Bongo's.

All suggestions welcome - this is for a custom build, but I can see the suggestions being useful for anyone who's recently got a Sterling Bongo and who might want to upgrade the electronics.

 

[Geri O]

Hi All ,
Here’s an update. I did get another opinion, this time from someone who was recommended to me -too be fair, all the other guys were recommended but in this case this guy really knew what he was doing and his interest was piqued and fixed right in front of me.
He studied the board for a bit, then gently removed dodgy wiring, soldering etc. Then reinstalled wiring and connected everything up.
Now here’s the kicker, after all that it seems that the plastic battery compartment had perished somewhat and the terminals at the back weren’t staying in place, so its entirely possible that this was the root of the problem not the preamp! No matter, the broken plastic was removed and a standard 9v battery terminal was wired in. He also replaced the original sometimes noisy jack with a standard TRS jack.
Hey presto everything works as it should.
The moral of the story- always get a second opinion…or third…
Needless to say, it’s a great result all round- my 25 year love affair with this Ray is reaffirmed, and I had an excellent excuse to purchase a shiny new Sadowsky PJ while I was trying bring the Ray back to life. Happy Days.
Thanks to all who chimed in with ideas on this thread and the SR5 club.

I’m kinda late to this particular part of the conversation, but with regard to the availability of that preamp, I replaced the preamp in a 1979 pre-EB (of course) Stingray. I called MM and inquired about a replacement for that particular model and the reply was, “sure, no problem, just send us the bad preamp and we’ll get a new one right out. That’ll be $65, please”. And I was warned that it wouldn’t look like the bad unit I was replacing, but it was the exact replacement. And they were right. It definitely had that early Stingray tone.

I did ask and the fellow told me they had a good stock of pretty much all the old-model preamps available with the exchange of the bad unit it was replacing.

I was mentioning this because I was surprised that you were told the preamp you needed was unavailable. Perhaps things have changed.

Asa side note, I know of three older stingray owners that swear the John East MM replacement is the best aftermarket Stingray preamp they’ve come across. If I were in need of a new preamp and I couldn’t get it from MM, I’d go with the East unit.