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Music Theory under rated

#81
Over on the "over rated" thread, I remember guys who were against it or turned off by it because they imagined it to be more about intellectual arguements/conversations about music they could care less about as opposed to something they could actually apply to the music they enjoyed. Another road block to learning it was they saw people who knew theory as having an attitude of I know more than you therefore I'm superior.

I wonder where they come up with such crazy notions.
 
#83
GeoffT said:
Over on the "over rated" thread, I remember guys who were against it or turned off by it because they imagined it to be more about intellectual arguements/conversations about music they could care less about as opposed to something they could actually apply to the music they enjoyed. Another road block to learning it was they saw people who knew theory as having an attitude of in know more than you therefore I'm superior.

I wonder where they come up with such crazy notions.
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To put a different spin on it, I think a piece of the puzzle that is not always considered is what each person likes to listen to. If they have a strong or exclusive taste for music that traditional diatonic theory is not great at describing efficiently - like blues or blues based rock - there's understandably no immediate advantage to learning music from that essentially alien perspective.

But then maybe it's a chicken/egg thing; if you aren't motivated to check out different kinds of music or learn how it works, and you can get by with what you are interested in by ear or with a limited understanding (which you're not calling music theory, even though it is), the reward isn't there for you. And if you are interested, you develop a taste for music that uses those other sounds or comes from those other traditions that are further away from where you are now.

I think it's pretty easy to see the appeal of, say, George Russell's music, if you check out any of his first dozen or so albums where he incorporates great swinging blues and jazz rooted material with lots of melody and excellent playing with advanced harmonic ideas. That tuned tom tom solo on "the Jazz Workshop" is a real head turner. It knocked me out long before I knew how his theoretical ideas (as applied to kick ass jazz) worked. But, without being introduced to it by accident or happenstance, you have to be interested, and not everybody is.
 
#84
Groove Master said:
Theory is under rated by too many posters here mainly because they don't know anything about it and don't put the smallest effort to study it !
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thats because theory is not required to do what each individual poster wants to do. the original question has no factual answer. its all opinions. all our opinions are correct. the difference is some of the people who know theory get seem to get annoyed if someone does not agree. on the other hand those of us who are happy without it do not mind if someone else thinks its important.
 
#86
Ric5 said:
Many times the theory is invented afterwards to try to explain things that happen.

I know this is true for Architecture.
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It's completely true in music.

Music theory is not a "theory" in the scientific sense - it isn't attempting to explain nature.

Music theory is more akin to a grammar than it is to theory in science.

Grammar: A normative or prescriptive set of rules setting forth the current standard of usage for pedagogical or reference purposes.
 
#87
staindbass said:
thats because theory is not required to do what each individual poster wants to do. the original question has no factual answer. its all opinions. all our opinions are correct. the difference is some of the people who know theory get seem to get annoyed if someone does not agree. on the other hand those of us who are happy without it do not mind if someone else thinks its important.
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^agree 100%!!!! I dont know much theory and to tell you the truth could care less. I know scales, my way around the fretboard, and what makes up a chord and read simple charts. Just give me a key and the chords and I'm gooood! I am a roots,fifths,octive player with simple fills. I hold the bottom, lock in and am fine just the way I am.

Now I play with alot of guys who know theory inside and out. One is classically trained on violin. When I ask him music /theory questions he is kind enough to answer them but always finishes by saying if its good its good! Dont get caught up in to it too much. He tells me practice what you play, feel and listen (big ears) and you will be fine. Theory is great but practical (playing) is where some of us are at and are A-OK. There is theory is allot of things I have been involved in in my life but all I was ever paid to do or needed to provide came from practical applications and training, never any theory training.
Would theory help us? Maybe? but we are not too lazy or not willing to take the time, some of us are just fine with what we are and dont need to force our opinions on others who dont agree with them.
Some TBers on here I swear love to wave the MUST KNOW THEORY OR ELSE flags way too much. Lighten up and just play. I have never in my life seen any musician play and said to myself... hummm.... I wonder if they know theory, took a lesson or are they self trained like me? Its only music people, at least nobody dies (hopefully)
 
#88
staindbass said:
thats because theory is not required to do what each individual poster wants to do. the original question has no factual answer. its all opinions. all our opinions are correct. the difference is some of the people who know theory get seem to get annoyed if someone does not agree. on the other hand those of us who are happy without it do not mind if someone else thinks its important.
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We're just saying that theory is beneficial to anyone who learns it, that's all. And, that whatever you know by ear is still a part of it, whether you realize it or not. No one on here is saying that they are above anyone else. Please don't accuse anyone of doing that. Play however you want, and learn whatever you want, or not. I have no problem with that. But, for me, theory is fascinating, and it has helped me immensely. Whatever I've learned has no bearing on you, though, and whatever you want to do. I say this with all due respect.:)
 
#90
Groove Master said:
Theory is under rated by too many posters here mainly because they don't know anything about it and don't put the smallest effort to study it !
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I have never studied music. I taught myself how to play drums and guitar and think my best instrument is bass. I pick things up quickly by ear and have an intuitive sense of what works and what doesn't. (in a rock and roll setting anyway). I can just tell when something is right and when something is wrong, assuming there is a right and wrong in music.

Having said that I really wish I had studied music or at least played piano growing up. I think it would make me an even better player. My drummer has studied music however, and he thinks my biggest asset is not knowing music theory. Go figure.
 
#91
GeoffT said:
88 Posts in this thread so far, bet you can't find 3 that say you "must know theory or else"? or even ones that say you can't make good music or be successful without knowing theory?
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Its not just this post k? Its allot of them like it i have been a part of and the overall tone and attitude of some (not all) who wave that flag proudly. If you are not one need not be offended.

I watch allot of cooking shows (love them) I relate the whole bass playing/theory thing like the looks on those classically trained or schooled chefs faces, when some self- trained school of hard knocks chef comes in and wins a competition with just heart, soul and simple technique-priceless!
 
#92
Gyver said:
I have never studied music. I taught myself how to play drums and guitar and think my best instrument is bass. I pick things up quickly by ear and have an intuitive sense of what works and what doesn't. (in a rock and roll setting anyway). I can just tell when something is right and when something is wrong, assuming there is a right and wrong in music.

Having said that I really wish I had studied music or at least played piano growing up. I think it would make me an even better player. My drummer has studied music however, and he thinks my biggest asset is not knowing music theory. Go figure.
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It looks like you devoted some time learning what sounds good and what sounds wrong by playing multiple instruments and not just bass. That is your strenght, you've got ears and talent. Theory will never give you that if you don't have it or if you don't work at it. But after all that time you are now aware that it wouldn't have hurt to learn it. But I think it is never too late to learn. Actually, with all your experience you'll learn in no-time with a good book or a good teacher!

Theory won't give you talent but it will give the knowledge of the principles and rules of western harmony that 99% of the music that people play here are based on.

The problem I find with bass players that don't know much theory and harmony is that they have to rely only on theirs ears and experience.Not a bad thing but it does not open a lot of doors. Sometimes they are stuck in one style of music because it is pretty much the only thing they know. And the fact that we, bass players play mostly roots in a lot of styles of music and cover songs, that doesn't provide a lot of information about the harmony that goes up there in the chords if you don't spend a bit of time to study them.

I think a good mix of ear training and some theory under your belt will make you travel very far in the wonderful world of music ;-)

PS) Regarding your drummer's comment I think it is mainly because you play with feel and groove and you are playing BASS and sometimes educated players don't have that ;)
 
#93
fourstringburn said:
I assume your music education may be limited so please don't take it personally if your question and explanations here were hypothetical.

As for middle C, it's usually the starting point in Piano lessons due to it's simplicity to understand and is in the middle of the keyboard. You are incorrect suggesting that it was made that way for ease and location.
The musical scale was discovered centuries ago by a Greek mathematician and the intervals of semi tones and whole tones have long been determined. So your hypothesis would suggest that a extra black key in every octave would have made middle C harder to find so pianos weren't built with it. That is incorrect.

As for sharps/flats, it is key dependent if a sharp or flat can be a black or white key. The F# Major scale has an E# in it, yet the key one would visualize if they didn't know better is the F key. That would be a enharmonic equivalent. This same scales enharmonic equivalent would be the Gb Major scale which has a Cb in it's key signature yet one would probably view that as a B.

All instruments of pitch follow the same rules yet obviously not all have white and black keys or frets to locate notes. This is where knowing and hearing the difference between whole tones and semi tones come into play.

Here is $20.00 worth of music lessons...

White keys and black keys can be both whole tones and half tones dependent to what key you are playing in. Take any key of the Major scale and the formula in order of whole tones and semi tones are the same, i.e.

Whole Tone - W.Tone - Semitone - W.Tone - W.Tone - W.Tone - Semitone- W.tone (octave)

So yes a C major scale, the most basic because there are no "black" keys is nothing more than C D E F G A B C and the 2 semi tones are between E-F and B-C .

But if you played an E major scale the notes would be E F# G# A B C# D# E and the semi tones would fall between G# and A and D# and E

So you can see the semi tones are always after the third note and the seventh note from the root in every key signature of the Major scale and could be a black key or white.

When you learn the basic building blocks of scales and chords and how they are constructed, the formulas are the same in every key signature.

Music theory isn't hard at all, in the beginning at least. A lot of it is based off formulas and methods to ease the learning process. It is in the grasps of everyone but I'm sorry to say that most people are too lazy and make up every kind of excuse to justify not learning it. :crying:
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My theory is not limited, but it is not advanced at the same time. I do understand all that you have mentioned, in bold. So that makes up most of the post lol.

I was not suggesting that adding an extra black key was avoided due to the pianos construct. At least not so directly. But more as, the piano was constructed in that fashion so that middle c, any c, any note at all can be located. If, there ... to be continued
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#94
I've been in music all my life. My folks were professional classical musicians... violin & viola. My experience says that people are different in how they acquire information. Some do well in a formal classroom environment, others (like me) do much better learning in the field hands on. I don't believe one way is better than another... they both lead you to a similar destination. To the folks who feel strongly that learning music theory in a somewhat formal environment... more power to you, and I have no doubt that if you learn best that way, your time spent in that pursuit will yield true and tangible benefits. However, be mindful that there's more than one way to acquire intimate knowledge. At the end of the day it all leads to the one language that's truly universal on this planet... music.
 
#95
staindbass said:
thats because theory is not required to do what each individual poster wants to do. the original question has no factual answer. its all opinions. all our opinions are correct. the difference is some of the people who know theory get seem to get annoyed if someone does not agree. on the other hand those of us who are happy without it do not mind if someone else thinks its important.
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No, I want job security, being able to play in quite a few different bands, play a wide variety of music and take some reading gigs is job security. I can work as a musician. This is not an opinion, the more I can do and learn songs fast or on the fly the better I do as a working musician. You may be richer than me (I'm fine with that) doing what you want (I'm fine with that) but if one wants to be assured they can play music for a living they need to read, transpose, arrange and learn 3 sets of material fast, maybe for a few bands.

I just happen to think it's bad advice for anyone who desires to play for a living to be told learning music theory is not required, nor reading etc.

Slowgypsy: I do terribly in class situations, I am academic though, you can study privately with just about any professor! To me best of both worlds, learning from a 'formal' teacher in an informal setting.
 
#96
I'm sure glad my doctor has had training, and isn't treating me by ear.

Not the same? Well, it makes about as much sense as some of the comments on here. Look, folks, theory is not something that will stifle creativity. Nor is it something to be proud of, just as a lack of knowledge of it isn't either. I'm beginning to see that this debate will go on til the end of time.
 
#99
lsabina said:
They read text books? I don't believe so...certainly not in the sense that college students today use the Piston or any of the other multitude of books now available.
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Mozart, Haydn & Beethoven were all familiar w/the Fux book.

Check out Mann's book "the great composer as teacher and student" to surviving examples of classical guys working through Fux's text. (Gradus ad Parnassum) Haydn appears to have used it as a self-teaching method for himself before working through it with his students.

GT
 

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