If his shop is losing money you'd be doing him a favour going out on your own. Between failing eyesight, losing money and half his customers leaving he'd be retired in a month or two.
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My boss doesn't understand neck relief.
- Thread starter TheMightyWoot1
- Start date
or C. F. Martin IV?His name isn't John Hall, is it?
Seriously -- different guitars and basses over the years have been spec'd differently as to relief or straight necks. Most Gibson, Fender and derived instruments require a tad of relief, depending on the instrument and the player's style as to how much. Mr. John Hall of RIC and Mr. C. F. Martin IV prefer dead straight. I'm in the middle: I like the treble side dead straight to help with intonation and the bass side with relief to help with string excursion preventing fret buzz. So as you can imagine, I do own three Rickenbacker instruments with double truss rods, and I look carefully at the grain of the wood in the neck of other instruments I purchase to see if they will do the same on their own.
You are correct that the bottom line is what the customer wants. But that may require you going out on your own. I have set up hundreds of instruments over the past 35 years for myself and my friends, and I always talk to them and have them demonstrate their playing style to me so I can set up the instrument to suit the individual person, whatever the factory may spec, starting there as a reference and asking what they don't like about it, and changing accordingly.
HA!
That company is so bad these days, yet people still buy them thinking they are the best. I find modern Martins to be atrocious instruments.
It's his shop, he's the boss; do it his way. The correct way is the way the boss wants it.
I often think I have a better way, than my boss. Whatevs, I pitch my idea, then do it the bosses way. Next day when the boss is pitching my idea to the client, as if it were his own, I just say "Good idea boss, glad you thought of it."
Doing things my way, not the boss's way leads to annoyed bosses and fewer raises.
If it all goes **** up, when I've done things the bosses way, I'm still safe. If things go wrong when I've ignored the boss, I'm in deep trouble.
Strike out on your own, before the stink of his reputation rubs off on you.
FWIW I set my basses up with a bit of relief.
I often think I have a better way, than my boss. Whatevs, I pitch my idea, then do it the bosses way. Next day when the boss is pitching my idea to the client, as if it were his own, I just say "Good idea boss, glad you thought of it."
Doing things my way, not the boss's way leads to annoyed bosses and fewer raises.
If it all goes **** up, when I've done things the bosses way, I'm still safe. If things go wrong when I've ignored the boss, I'm in deep trouble.
Strike out on your own, before the stink of his reputation rubs off on you.
FWIW I set my basses up with a bit of relief.
One thing about me is that I will NOT do something the wrong way no matter who tells me to. Its called integrity, and doing something right is always its own reward, IMO. I will NOT ruin myself following orders then expect it to not follow me around. I am responsible for my work, period. Sure, I probably should just let him deal with the consequences of his ineptitude, but he doesn't learn from his mistakes when he can't even remember them. I only fix things behind him to try and preserve the shop's integrity.
If these problems have been coming home with you for awhile and if they continue to in the NEAR future, bail if you can find another job. I assume he's also the owner and the only way things will change is when he's no longer able (worse than now) to continue (or croaks) you will be jobless anyway. Unless you've been like a son to him and he leaves you the place in his will.
The reason I suggest bailing is for your own mental health and happiness.
The reason I suggest bailing is for your own mental health and happiness.
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
- 4,741
- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
It all depends,, I like my necks dead on straight... But to do that you cant have a stock fret job from joe blow.. The finger board has to be dead on balls accurate ...
Then the frets need to be perfectly level... and plecking wont do it because that does NOT tru the fingerboard... TO me plecking is a waste.. Just my opinion.
My Alleva Coppolo basses get a little extra time since i am a real stinker for a really tru neck. I have even trued my own finger boards while at the shop while its being made...
Once that is attained.. and frets are set and leveled.. I can then adjust string height from my bridge saddle or shim if i want..
Having a real straight neck gives me an action that starts light, stays light and only increase slightly as you go higher.. It is predictable and more comfy for me. Im guessing i play with a medium to medium low action overall.. with 1/16" at 12 fret on g string with 1st fret capoed...and i never get buzz... and it sound smooth and even and fluid/
TO me, necks that have silly amounts
of relief usually feels like crap since in first position it feels light.. then as you get to the mid section its gets harder and spongey.. then as you go up it gets lighter again..
But everyone has a different feel.. I have been doing this for about 40 years and i find this works best for me.
But you need a real good fret job that starts with an expert and precise fingerboard truing.. and not an off teh rack fender whose fingerboards look like a roller coaster ride if you put a straight edge on it. heck you can even see it with eye..
Then the frets need to be perfectly level... and plecking wont do it because that does NOT tru the fingerboard... TO me plecking is a waste.. Just my opinion.
My Alleva Coppolo basses get a little extra time since i am a real stinker for a really tru neck. I have even trued my own finger boards while at the shop while its being made...
Once that is attained.. and frets are set and leveled.. I can then adjust string height from my bridge saddle or shim if i want..
Having a real straight neck gives me an action that starts light, stays light and only increase slightly as you go higher.. It is predictable and more comfy for me. Im guessing i play with a medium to medium low action overall.. with 1/16" at 12 fret on g string with 1st fret capoed...and i never get buzz... and it sound smooth and even and fluid/
TO me, necks that have silly amounts
of relief usually feels like crap since in first position it feels light.. then as you get to the mid section its gets harder and spongey.. then as you go up it gets lighter again..
But everyone has a different feel.. I have been doing this for about 40 years and i find this works best for me.
But you need a real good fret job that starts with an expert and precise fingerboard truing.. and not an off teh rack fender whose fingerboards look like a roller coaster ride if you put a straight edge on it. heck you can even see it with eye..
This is the conclusion that I have come to as well. I have been bottling this stuff up and it drains me. I'm going to make up a resumé, and drop some copies off at a few places. If I lived closer to Hillsboro, I would definitely be going to Five Star Guitars asking for a tech position.
Good thing you didn't put the name of the place you work on your post...
Little hint for you...get a new job first, THEN complain about the old one.
Little hint for you...get a new job first, THEN complain about the old one.
Little hint for you...get a new job first, THEN complain about the old one.
Although, complaining about the old one is getting on the express train to the new one
So, if you have people coming to you to correct his setups, buy the shop. If you don't need to rely on major, time-consuming and barely break-even projects and would be able to make a profit, go ahead. If you can create a decent following, you could be the "go to" guy in your area.
If you want to demonstrate why relief is necessary, take a rope, suspend it, vertically, with a good amount of tension, from anything at the ceiling that will support it safely. Attach a weight in the middle and "pluck" it, the way someone would pluck a string on an instrument. Watch the weight move, at first back and forth and then, it will start to rotate around the center axis. THAT's what he needs to see. The heavier the string, the more it gyrates. You'll see varying degrees of gyration, based on where you pluck it. You'll also see that the string seems to have more than one point where it moves less- these are the center points for the harmonics.
This explanation partly due to Dr. Raymond Suchy, my acoustics professor, who was recruited for the Manhattan Project, but re-directed so he could teach people in the Army about RADAR- how it works and how to implement/operate and repair it during WWII. He passed away a couple of days ago. RIP.
The other local shops whom you would presumably like to be hired by have already "fixed" this guy's work. The last entry on your resume' will NOT impress them, no matter how much you explain. The damage to your rep will likely last as long as the tight labor market. You could be setting yourself up for years of frustration if you stay in the same location.
If he's using funds from a "day job" to finance a business, you are essentially working for a hobbyist. There's no telling how many bad business habits you are absorbing by spending time in that shop. Something tells me that spontaneous combustion hazards and ruler-flat setups are the tip of the iceberg.
I think you know where I'm going with this... it's time to quit!
If another shop picks you up despite the rep of your current one, great. If not, you need to get a job doing something else for awhile and do some setup work on the side. Put some distance between you and your current employer. If you do interview for another shop, they'll appreciate your integrity and commitment to your craft. Nobody is impressed when you tell them you stayed on a sinking ship because you were afraid. It definitely sounds like you're on a sinking ship. If your boss doesn't realize this, that just gives you an opening to leave on a high note. Your employment there may even be the difference between him making money or spending it from his other job. Of course, if he does realize this, or has any inkling of the problems you've been publicly complaining about, he'll be pissed, but there isn't much you can do about that. One thing is clear from reading your posts: no matter what the day-to-day relationship is, or how thankful you may have felt at one time, the magic is gone. You have lost a great deal of repect for your employer, and nothing good can come from that. Don't put off the inevitable. Good luck.
If he's using funds from a "day job" to finance a business, you are essentially working for a hobbyist. There's no telling how many bad business habits you are absorbing by spending time in that shop. Something tells me that spontaneous combustion hazards and ruler-flat setups are the tip of the iceberg.
I think you know where I'm going with this... it's time to quit!
If another shop picks you up despite the rep of your current one, great. If not, you need to get a job doing something else for awhile and do some setup work on the side. Put some distance between you and your current employer. If you do interview for another shop, they'll appreciate your integrity and commitment to your craft. Nobody is impressed when you tell them you stayed on a sinking ship because you were afraid. It definitely sounds like you're on a sinking ship. If your boss doesn't realize this, that just gives you an opening to leave on a high note. Your employment there may even be the difference between him making money or spending it from his other job. Of course, if he does realize this, or has any inkling of the problems you've been publicly complaining about, he'll be pissed, but there isn't much you can do about that. One thing is clear from reading your posts: no matter what the day-to-day relationship is, or how thankful you may have felt at one time, the magic is gone. You have lost a great deal of repect for your employer, and nothing good can come from that. Don't put off the inevitable. Good luck.
To the OP: if you're the head tech, who exactly is this mentor in terms of position and or ownership?
Almost sounds as if you're in a thinly veiled competition with said individual...and there's nothing wrong with that. Try this instead:
*If possible, make sure any W/O's, invoices, receipts, etc. have your name and contact # conspicuously posted. Word-of-mouth is seriously under-rated.
*After delivery of a repaired instrument, make a 72 hr. follow-up phone call to the client to verify satisfaction. I do this with my medical clients.
*Do not grumble, complain, or otherwise undermine co-workers. You will not endear yourself to the powers-at-hand. Make your mark by out-performing in every aspect...quality, timeliness, listening skills.
*In time, clients will be asking for you by name and not accepting any substitutes. In response, the so-called mentor may bow out gracefully and accept a more fitting role in sales, administration, whatever. No harm, no foul.
Riis
Almost sounds as if you're in a thinly veiled competition with said individual...and there's nothing wrong with that. Try this instead:
*If possible, make sure any W/O's, invoices, receipts, etc. have your name and contact # conspicuously posted. Word-of-mouth is seriously under-rated.
*After delivery of a repaired instrument, make a 72 hr. follow-up phone call to the client to verify satisfaction. I do this with my medical clients.
*Do not grumble, complain, or otherwise undermine co-workers. You will not endear yourself to the powers-at-hand. Make your mark by out-performing in every aspect...quality, timeliness, listening skills.
*In time, clients will be asking for you by name and not accepting any substitutes. In response, the so-called mentor may bow out gracefully and accept a more fitting role in sales, administration, whatever. No harm, no foul.
Riis
Surely he has heard of Fender. Download a Fender owners manual and the Jerzy Drozd manual and show him what the builders know. Just say here's what I mean, it isn't a point if debate, it's a fact: some relief is required and there are instruction manuals on how to do it properly. Then leave the manuals for him to read, or not. Then let it go.
As for the chemicals, make your decision. Are you planning on buying him out when he retires? If not start looking for a new place to work where your brain cells are not in jeopardy.
As for the chemicals, make your decision. Are you planning on buying him out when he retires? If not start looking for a new place to work where your brain cells are not in jeopardy.
He is the owner of the shop. I am the manager, and the lead tech. After the first few years of working for him, he promoted me due to the fact that I was making him money. Before I started working for him, he would take a VERY long time to complete the work on customers items, leading to very frustrated customers. I actually took my bass to him for a new nut about a year before I started working for him, and it took seven weeks for him to complete it. When I finally got it back, I was very disappointed. I wanted a polished bone nut, and I got a rough one, with inconsistent action at the nut, and a very buzzy A string. Once I started working there, turnaround time was exponentially reduced, making the shop more money. I can complete up to five instruments a day, while he gets about one finished. He takes a lot of breaks, procrastinates, makes excuses for himself, etc. The one thing he can do is charm the pants off of new people that come to the shop. They fall in love with him, bring in their stuff to get fixed, and then wait. And wait. Then they call, and he lies to them about the progress of it, like telling them he was just working on it, then coming into the back searching for their instrument which he hasn't touched in weeks. It happens all the time.
I have no desire to buy the business from him, its too much of a mess. We recently relocated to a bigger space, and the overhead is murder. He is behind on rent payments, and there is about $10,000 in unpaid consignments. I would much rather start with a clean slate than fix his messes.
Then do it. Try to leave on good terms, but if the owner takes it badly, that's his problem, not yours. You're in a far better position than a lot out there - you've got the experience in repairs and setups, you know what equipment you'll need, and you've gotten some tips on how to run a business.
Give it a go. Don't steal his clients, but when they come and find you, don't turn them away.
First there are (as seen in this thread) valid arguments for a dead-flat fingerboard. Anthony Jackson is a proponent of setting up one's bass that way as well.
But the bigger question is if you can't deal with the situation, there's no point trying to beat the dead horse. It's time to move on.
John
But the bigger question is if you can't deal with the situation, there's no point trying to beat the dead horse. It's time to move on.
John
If what you describe is true, on his own this a guy is a completely crooked and incompetent business man...and by staying and working for him knowing all this, you are supporting it.
Run away from this, don't walk. Your reputation is only going to get better if you go, and worse if you stay.
I prefer mine dead straight.
If I have to have a bow or "relief" to set it up, I am done with that bass.
If I just absolutely love the bass I spring for new frets, or even replacing or reshaping a fret or two.
I tighten almost every truss rod I come across.
Just my .02
If I have to have a bow or "relief" to set it up, I am done with that bass.
If I just absolutely love the bass I spring for new frets, or even replacing or reshaping a fret or two.
I tighten almost every truss rod I come across.
Just my .02
