My boss doesn't understand neck relief.

[Willicious]

I really want to, but like you said human nature is cranky. If I set up a shop here in town he will become a flaming ball of madness. I don't want to move.... I love this town. I think I will go work for someone else until he goes under, which shouldn't take long at this rate.

As others have said, time to open your own shop. If you don't want to piss the old man off, come over here, to Bend, where there's way more annual days of sunshine, plus, we could really use a good luthier.

And yes, I agree with you, you CANNOT get a good setup with a perfectly flat neck. That is, unless your bass is strung with some magic-ass strings that somehow defy the laws of physics.

 

[96tbird]

The story on the old man is getting worse every minute. Basically he's crooked and incompetent. Leave before that rep begins to follow you around.

 

[Stumbo]

No one asks for his setup specifically, and when they ask for mine specifically, he tells them that that is not how we operate, that he won't promise that I will be the one to do the work. This ends up causing customers to just leave with their stuff.

IMO, time to open your own shop for your health, wealth and sanity.

Being associated with your boss at this point is probably damaging your reputation.

I suggest saving some $$, putting together a business plan and then executing it. Maybe you can rent space at a music store or other music related business? Lots of options.

PS. he won't go under as long as you're still there. Sounds like he has some serious mental/medical problems that he's not dealing with. It's not your job to keep him in business. You've paid your dues and made him lots of money over the years.

Since potential customers are walking out if you're not involved with their guitars, obviously you're leaving a lot on the table by continuing to work there. And, you're watching a lot of future sales being lost as well.

Seems there will be a lot of happy people to see you go on your own.

Good luck!

 

[TheMightyWoot1]

As others have said, time to open your own shop. If you don't want to piss the old man off, come over here, to Bend, where there's way more annual days of sunshine, plus, we could really use a good luthier.

And yes, I agree with you, you CANNOT get a good setup with a perfectly flat neck. That is, unless your bass is strung with some magic-ass strings that somehow defy the laws of physics.

Really funny that you metion Bend. I was actually think about moving there to set up shop just two weeks ago. More sunshine is a plus, and I know you guys need someone out there. One thing that is really keeping me around is my band. I love those guys, and we have been playing together for years. I am a bit worried about finding a new group of musos, mostly due to all the horror stories I've read on TB.

 

[Downunderwonder]

The way you tell it this geezer is going to shrivel up and die within a week of you quitting.

Luthier and guitar tech are not interchangeable terms.

 

[Willicious]

Really funny that you metion Bend. I was actually think about moving there to set up shop just two weeks ago. More sunshine is a plus, and I know you guys need someone out there. One thing that is really keeping me around is my band. I love those guys, and we have been playing together for years. I am a bit worried about finding a new group of musos, mostly due to all the horror stories I've read on TB.

Currently, there's only one shop that I know of here in Bend that handles setups and repairs (Bend Instrument Repair). They're pretty good, and their prices are reasonable, but it'd sure be great to have a choice.

Would be tough to leave your current band, especially if you all get on pretty well. I don't play out, but a friend and fellow TB'er (jallenbass) does, quite a bit, and I imagine he might be able to give you a better idea of the local situation. PM me next time you're headed over this way, and we'll do a mini GTG.

—Will

 

[bassbully]

There is a shop right by where I live and the owner who has been doing this for 50 years belives the same way as they guy you work for does. He did one setup for me on a guitar a few years ago and in two days it buzzed.
I never would use him again and went on to do my own setups. I fixed his mess by adding a tad of relief to the stright neck. The owner there says a neck should be die straight...He won't listen to anyone on this either.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I have been working at a local guitar shop for the last five years now, and I love my work. At first, I was an apprentice, but it didn't take long before I realized that I actually know more than my mentor, especially about electric instruments.

I have been trying to get him to understand why neck relief is absolutely critical to the setup of a stringed instrument, showing him diagrams, explaining the science, etc., but he just doesn't get it. He thinks that the neck needs to be dead straight, then he raises saddles to get rid of buzz. Everytime I tell him why that is wrong, he just says that he disagrees and that people always differ on this. But the reality is that no professional tech that I know of would EVER adjust a fretted neck to be dead straight. I'm frustrated to say the least, and I am even more upset to think of how many instruments he has done this to over the years.

I am at a loss as to what to do. He won't listen or learn, and is convinced that his setups are top notch, which they are not. Usually I go behind him and correct his mistakes without him knowing.

What should I do? He is 68 years old and can barely remember what day of the week it is, and his eyes are failing pretty bad. To top all of that off, in the 40 years that he has been working on instruments, he has never once worn a respirator when using solvents or finishing products, and when he is done with said solvents, he tosses the paper towel in to a OPEN UNSEALED CARDBOARD BOX, poisoning the air. It took me a while to get him to throw solvent soaked paper towels outside in the dumpster. So his brain is mush.


Ugh.

What do you guys think I should do? Quit and try to find a different shop? Call OSHA? Show up to work in a bubble suit?

Thanks for reading.

Save your money until you can open your own shop. In the meanwhile, remain as respectful as possible.

 

[awilkie84]

There are a few things you can do!!!

1.- Make Dr. Sheldon Cooper explain the damn thing to the old fart
2.- Make another old fart explain the damn thing
3.- Make an American Standard Precision Bass accidentally fall over the old fart's forehead
4.- With an American Standard Precision Bass hit the old fart's neck, and make it looks like an accident

Bazinga

Use a MIM, they weigh more.

 

[lethargytartare]

So the totality of your thread here is that you are great, you hate your job, and work for an incompetent, senile, withering old man (who, at 68, still has his own guitar shop that's somehow managed to stick around for 42 years). From your description, this useless old man seems to be very accepting of your different opinion, but you don't seem to return that courtesy. You also seem to do things behind his back, which doesn't speak highly of you. And you insulted him 11 times in one post to a bunch of people on the internet in a post that lists his business's name (what you're doing is called 'defamation'...if he's a cranky sort AND has a lawyer, you should probably go look one up for yourself...). Your confidence makes it odd that you're asking for advice. Three times you even disputed the responses of people who said they prefer dead-straight necks. I have a few guitars that I set up that way too -- I do it myself, and I like the result (obviously).

You already know what to do -- go start your own business. And you should. Based on your "I have integrity" post the only safe course for you is to take complete control of your work. Doing things behind your boss's back shows a LACK of integrity, and could ultimately get you in trouble. Think what it says to people reading this thread: you will freely substitute your own judgment for that of others -- in fact, you feel OBLIGATED out of a sense of integrity -- and you will do it secretly. That's not what I'd like to hear if I were a potential customer. Possibly the most ironic line in this all is "I only fix things behind him to try and preserve the shop's integrity"...in a thread where every other time you post you insult the hell out of the owner...hilarious. You should start your own business, and if it's around in 40 years, come back and post an "I told you so" thread.

 

[klegdixal]

since this is a subplot of this thread anyway... can anyone explain to me benefits of ruler-straight, strings on frets when pressed against first and last fret, neck? because so far myself i've found none and i'd like to know if i'm missing something.

 

[TheMightyWoot1]

So the totality of your thread here is that you are great, you hate your job, and work for an incompetent, senile, withering old man (who, at 68, still has his own guitar shop that's somehow managed to stick around for 42 years). From your description, this useless old man seems to be very accepting of your different opinion, but you don't seem to return that courtesy. You also seem to do things behind his back, which doesn't speak highly of you. And you insulted him 11 times in one post to a bunch of people on the internet in a post that lists his business's name (what you're doing is called 'defamation'...if he's a cranky sort AND has a lawyer, you should probably go look one up for yourself...). Your confidence makes it odd that you're asking for advice. Three times you even disputed the responses of people who said they prefer dead-straight necks. I have a few guitars that I set up that way too -- I do it myself, and I like the result (obviously).

You already know what to do -- go start your own business. And you should. Based on your "I have integrity" post the only safe course for you is to take complete control of your work. Doing things behind your boss's back shows a LACK of integrity, and could ultimately get you in trouble. Think what it says to people reading this thread: you will freely substitute your own judgment for that of others -- in fact, you feel OBLIGATED out of a sense of integrity -- and you will do it secretly. That's not what I'd like to hear if I were a potential customer. Possibly the most ironic line in this all is "I only fix things behind him to try and preserve the shop's integrity"...in a thread where every other time you post you insult the hell out of the owner...hilarious. You should start your own business, and if it's around in 40 years, come back and post an "I told you so" thread.

Hmm. Well, I think you are justified in your response, but I think I have failed to give the whole story. He has not been in business for 42 years, he sold the shop in the early 80s and it went out of business. Then he opened the shop again in 2003. He exaggerates every thing, and he counts on everybody taking his word as fact. He claims that we are the best, that we do work for people all over the country, tooting the shops horn and buttering up customers. You want to know who his hero is? P.T. Barnum.
He counts on people being suckers, and unfortunately, they often are. After five years, I can honestly say that this man is a hack, and deserves to be shut down. He is a liar, a terrible business man, and a piss poor tech.

Starting a thread about this was not the most honorable thing I could have done, I agree, but taking this mess home with me everyday is killing me, and I needed an outlet.

Also, the customers are in fact my friends, and I will not let them get their instrument back from him covered in pledge with improper intonation and a back warped neck. I would fix them secretly to not stir the pot, and keep things nice. I actually have not done this in a few years, as I am fed up with him. I let the customers find out for themselves that he is not who he proclaims himself to be.

Also, I LOVE my job when he is not there.

 

[TheMightyWoot1]

since this is a subplot of this thread anyway... can anyone explain to me benefits of ruler-straight, strings on frets when pressed against first and last fret, neck? because so far myself i've found none and i'd like to know if i'm missing something.

I would like to know this as well.

 

[darkstorm]

Ive owned several guitars and basses, in fact most of the ones Ive owned, where set up for practically dead straight necks. Moreso then any factory specs sheet instructions. Better made basses and guitars allow for striaghter necks then others imo. Factory spec neck relief measurements for most mfg are horribly curved neck to me. Imo your boss is partly right, near dead straight, hardly able to tell they have relief is ideal to me to. With correcdtly made basses and level frets as part of that, its not a problem to get great setup with very low action and practically dead straight neck.

 

[96tbird]

I guess Jerzy Drodz makes sub par basses then.

 

[TheMightyWoot1]

Ive owned several guitars and basses, in fact most of the ones Ive owned, where set up for practically dead straight necks. Moreso then any factory specs sheet instructions. Better made basses and guitars allow for striaghter necks then others imo. Factory spec neck relief measurements for most mfg are horribly curved neck to me. Imo your boss is partly right, near dead straight, hardly able to tell they have relief is ideal to me to. With correcdtly made basses and level frets as part of that, its not a problem to get great setup with very low action and practically dead straight neck.

Key word: Practically. But how is it possible to achieve this without proper measurement? Gunsighting the neck is not the way, let me tell you. I agree that proper relief is almost imperceptable by eye, therefore I use the first and last fret method.

The quality of instruments does not change the fact that a string vibrates in an elliptical pattern.

I have my bass set up with a very slightly negative neck angle, which makes it possible for me to get the least amount of relief. But I still need to let the strings do their thing, and I don't want frets in the way. The idea is balance, not too much, not too little. And every instrument is different.

Having level frets is of the utmost importance when doing this type of fine tuning, and of course I would have hoped that you took that detail as a given. Low and/or high spots need to be eliminated to achieve maximum butterness.

My G&L needed a fret plane really badly when I got it, but I took care of it. Plane, crown, polish, BOOM.

When I level frets, I look at the wood in the neck, and how it is flexed, then adjust the truss rod accordingly for straight neck wood, then go at those frets. I have had great success on personal instruments as well as customer instruments.

 

[flatb]

... string vibrates in an elliptical pattern.

Was waiting for someone to mention this.

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While vibrating, the strings forms an elliptical pattern which is fixed at the anchor points (in the case of a guitar the nut and the bridge saddles) and has its maximum width at the centre of the strings, which corresponds to the 12th fret position on the fretboard.

Pitch and all the rest being the same a heavier string will require greater tension and will be harder to bend. It will have a reduced vibration pattern, will deliver more sustain, more volume and a brighter tone with more attack.

Conversely a lighter string will require less tension, will have a wider vibrating pattern and will deliver a smoother tone with less volume.

 

[odineye]

I've been watching this for a couple of days and am really surprised that this question hasn't come up before.

Do *either* of you ask what kind of setup the customer wants, before you take their instrument in back and start arguing over the *correct* way to set it up? We can argue all day over "dead strait" or "slight relief" and which is better, but at the end of the day the truth is that setup is a very subjective thing. In 30+ years of playing, I've only found two guys that I will trust with my instruments and that's because they asked that MOST important question that first time... "How do you want this set up?" Now we might have had a little polite exchange of ideas on what might work best, but in the end they set things up the way I preferred them to play.

Here's something to keep in mind. From what you've described, Stevie Ray Vaughan would have kicked every one of your setups to the curb. And from what I've heard, I'm pretty sure he played above the 7th fret.

 

[TheMightyWoot1]

I know that setups are subjective. Not everyone plays the same way, and I ALWAYS ASK WHAT MY CUSTOMERS WANT. Never have I been asked to make the neck ruler flat.

Do I care that you think SRV would hate my setups? NOT A BIT. I know for a fact that I can make a guitar play the way it needs to play for the owner of that guitar. And I am almost certain that SRV has relief in his necks, even if he can't tell its there.

Again, nothing will ever change the fact that strings vibrate in an elliptical pattern.

To all of you who think I'm some full of myself, sniveling kid, walk a mile in my shoes before you judge. I have been more that patient with this man, and I'm at the end of my ropes.

 

[TheMightyWoot1]

Was waiting for someone to mention this.

Invalid Link Removed

While vibrating, the strings forms an elliptical pattern which is fixed at the anchor points (in the case of a guitar the nut and the bridge saddles) and has its maximum width at the centre of the strings, which corresponds to the 12th fret position on the fretboard.

Pitch and all the rest being the same a heavier string will require greater tension and will be harder to bend. It will have a reduced vibration pattern, will deliver more sustain, more volume and a brighter tone with more attack.

Conversely a lighter string will require less tension, will have a wider vibrating pattern and will deliver a smoother tone with less volume.

Great post!

Can't argue with that science, can you?

This is why I looove heavy flats on my Gretsch 5127. The thing plays sooo smoooovly... after the appropriate adjustments have been made, of course

To those that like a ruler flat neck, fine, but when someone doesn't know how to do it either way properly, its a big fail.

I am a tell it like it is person, what can I say?