My worst soundguy experience (by now)

[AndyPanda]

I play mostly festival gigs the past 15 years - and I'm not the bassist in this band, I'm a "utility" guy playing sax, flute, keyboards and vocals. The keyboards are constantly switching - the song may have an accordion intro, rhodes on first verse and B3 on second verse and a horn section bridge - then sax solo and so on. And I need to be able to hear myself on all those instruments.

Festival gigs usually give 15 minutes for the previous band to get off, for you to get on and setup and quick soundcheck (and frequently you have asswipes on stage before you that don't get off quickly).

So I setup my rig where I bring my own powered monitor - I have my B3 (computer sim on a laptop) built into the rack with a mixer and I'm able to send the house my full mix OR I can send them my keyboard mix and a second channel with my mic (sax, flute, vocals) mix. Now - every soundman in the world sees this and immediately assumes I'm nothing but trouble (I must be an idiot sending my mic along with my keyboard mix - and I'll be blamed for any feedback though it is never me).

But the alternative is for them to give me three mics (sax, flute and vocal) and two keyboard channels (piano/synth/etc on one and B3 on the second). And they never have enough channels and rarely have time for a sound check. So I've found my rig has saved my ass so many times where we've had to hit the stage without a soundcheck and I can at least hear myself and if I need to I can spin my powered monitor around to be my FOH sound. (yes -- I've had many times the sound guy never bothered to even get me into the board until second or third song).

And then afterwards, 90% of the time, the sound guys are blown away by how I get a real B3 sound (laptop running a model) and never had to hassle with my signal at all except maybe to bring me up a little on the sax solos.

The point of my long winded rambling is that the sound guys will assume that anything you do that is "different" means you are a problem and they will go out of their way to not help you and let you suffer with whatever you get (it's your fault for throwing them a curveball). So I try to make it as easy as possible for them and not complain or demand much. If I actually get a place to plug into AC power and they send me a working cable so I am in the board I feel like I got really lucky and it's going to be a great gig.

And then as the years go by I start seeing the same sound guys over and over again and they remember how easy it went last time and become really helpful.

 

[LBS-bass]

Just to get a quick audio reference but mainly gain staging.

This. And I am sick to death of people complaining that it's not on while I'm looking at levels. Of course it's not on. I need to see what you're sending me on the meter before I'm willing to risk a blown speaker by actually turning it up.

 

[jmon]

Unless I’m paying someone to run sound out my own (or the bands) pocket I never complain. If it’s my dime and the person is working for me that night/day then yes I can make all the requests I like.

At a festival, or a venue even, you really can’t say much. Typically that person has done tons of these types of gigs and he was hired by someone else or works for the venue. He does not work for the band in that capacity. You pretty much have to make the best of it and play. Being critical of a soundperson will not help. Pretty much ever. They have a tough job and usually by midday their ears are fried anyway.

 

[s0c9]

Unless I’m paying someone to run sound out my own (or the bands) pocket I never complain. If it’s my dime and the person is working for me that night/day then yes I can make all the requests I like.

At a festival, or a venue even, you really can’t say much. Typically that person has done tons of these types of gigs and he was hired by someone else or works for the venue. He does not work for the band in that capacity. You pretty much have to make the best of it and play. Being critical of a soundperson will not help. Pretty much ever. They have a tough job and usually by midday their ears are fried anyway.

I'd love to have a bass player (or 3) with no FOH experience, come work alongside me at my next festival gig. It will be an eye-opener and make them understand, that they might be the 1st, or 7th band I've put on stage (and mixed) that day!
You may be there for a couple of hours in the late afternoon to early-evening. I've been there since 8am and won't leave until at least an hour after the last band/act has left the stage. SO after midnight, and have to be back there @ 8am next day. Yes, its a long day and no FOH guy I know wants more work than they need to, but they really DO want to make the band sound the best they can. Their rep is on the line too

I put on a Def Leppard tribute band at a festival last summer. It was 104 Degrees (THI = 112?) on the deck at 5 pm. They went on at 8pm. I did basic line check, monitor mix, etc. No sound check. They kicked off their set.
Not 30 seconds later, I've got one of their "management" complaining about the mix and that it needs more of x. In a 1-hr set with no sound check, even with basic settings on the board, it takes a couple of songs to EQ/balance and put effects on drums, keys, bass and multiple guitars.

Band members forget (or don't know) that going from a rock band, to a country act, to a bluegrass/zydeco act, and onto a blues band are VERY different mixes and can be in any order at a Festival and is all "in a day's work". Heck, I may have to put on music for the dance studio in between any of those

So please.. if anyone wants to volunteer (unpaid of course) to come out and learn what FOH does on a multi-band, multi-day festival (before your band rolls up), I'm sure myself, @Geri O, @Wasnex , @Paulabass or @4Mal can work something out

 

[4Mal]

Yes indeed!

migrating from side stage to FOH a few times can be an eye opener... frankly it should be required training for anyone that aspires to play live...

I’m on vacation;tonight. Playing a fair with a really good sound guy. Nice Nexo setup with a couple of line array cabs setup as point source each side and juicy cool Nexo double 18’s. All I’m taking is a GK mb-115 combo, pedal board with DI and 2 bases... Livin’ Large.

Tomorrow and Sunday I’m back at the festival lug. Sunday is my day at Waterfront Blies Fest in Portland. mostly i’ll Be helping with changeovers as they have Yoda at the board. Guy has golden ears and I love working with him as I learn something every time out... and then of course tear down... Happily one of the smaller stages. 6 per side hangs instead of 24... much more my speed for the 5th day in a row.

 

[wmhill]

It gets worse, much worse. If this is the worst so far, you're lucky.

 

[Wasnex]

I play mostly festival gigs the past 15 years - and I'm not the bassist in this band, I'm a "utility" guy playing sax, flute, keyboards and vocals. The keyboards are constantly switching - the song may have an accordion intro, rhodes on first verse and B3 on second verse and a horn section bridge - then sax solo and so on. And I need to be able to hear myself on all those instruments.

Festival gigs usually give 15 minutes for the previous band to get off, for you to get on and setup and quick soundcheck (and frequently you have asswipes on stage before you that don't get off quickly).

So I setup my rig where I bring my own powered monitor - I have my B3 (computer sim on a laptop) built into the rack with a mixer and I'm able to send the house my full mix OR I can send them my keyboard mix and a second channel with my mic (sax, flute, vocals) mix. Now - every soundman in the world sees this and immediately assumes I'm nothing but trouble (I must be an idiot sending my mic along with my keyboard mix - and I'll be blamed for any feedback though it is never me).

But the alternative is for them to give me three mics (sax, flute and vocal) and two keyboard channels (piano/synth/etc on one and B3 on the second). And they never have enough channels and rarely have time for a sound check. So I've found my rig has saved my ass so many times where we've had to hit the stage without a soundcheck and I can at least hear myself and if I need to I can spin my powered monitor around to be my FOH sound. (yes -- I've had many times the sound guy never bothered to even get me into the board until second or third song).

And then afterwards, 90% of the time, the sound guys are blown away by how I get a real B3 sound (laptop running a model) and never had to hassle with my signal at all except maybe to bring me up a little on the sax solos.

The point of my long winded rambling is that the sound guys will assume that anything you do that is "different" means you are a problem and they will go out of their way to not help you and let you suffer with whatever you get (it's your fault for throwing them a curveball). So I try to make it as easy as possible for them and not complain or demand much. If I actually get a place to plug into AC power and they send me a working cable so I am in the board I feel like I got really lucky and it's going to be a great gig.

And then as the years go by I start seeing the same sound guys over and over again and they remember how easy it went last time and become really helpful.

As an audio tech I would be a bit wary...most people lack the skill and knowledge to pull this off. So I guess that makes you a bit exceptional .


I have done gigs where sax players sang into their mics and doubled on flute. Sometimes it works pretty well.

 

[4Mal]

This. And I am sick to death of people complaining that it's not on while I'm looking at levels. Of course it's not on. I need to see what you're sending me on the meter before I'm willing to risk a blown speaker by actually turning it up.

I tell ‘em up front. Each guy or gal. Hey we’re line checking. You won’t hear anything for a bit. Just give me your loudest... and I still get the I can’t hear anything. Then I bring up their aux fader nice and slow...

 

[4Mal]

I play mostly festival gigs the past 15 years - and I'm not the bassist in this band, I'm a "utility" guy playing sax, flute, keyboards and vocals. The keyboards are constantly switching - the song may have an accordion intro, rhodes on first verse and B3 on second verse and a horn section bridge - then sax solo and so on. And I need to be able to hear myself on all those instruments.

Festival gigs usually give 15 minutes for the previous band to get off, for you to get on and setup and quick soundcheck (and frequently you have asswipes on stage before you that don't get off quickly).

So I setup my rig where I bring my own powered monitor - I have my B3 (computer sim on a laptop) built into the rack with a mixer and I'm able to send the house my full mix OR I can send them my keyboard mix and a second channel with my mic (sax, flute, vocals) mix. Now - every soundman in the world sees this and immediately assumes I'm nothing but trouble (I must be an idiot sending my mic along with my keyboard mix - and I'll be blamed for any feedback though it is never me).

But the alternative is for them to give me three mics (sax, flute and vocal) and two keyboard channels (piano/synth/etc on one and B3 on the second). And they never have enough channels and rarely have time for a sound check. So I've found my rig has saved my ass so many times where we've had to hit the stage without a soundcheck and I can at least hear myself and if I need to I can spin my powered monitor around to be my FOH sound. (yes -- I've had many times the sound guy never bothered to even get me into the board until second or third song).

And then afterwards, 90% of the time, the sound guys are blown away by how I get a real B3 sound (laptop running a model) and never had to hassle with my signal at all except maybe to bring me up a little on the sax solos.

The point of my long winded rambling is that the sound guys will assume that anything you do that is "different" means you are a problem and they will go out of their way to not help you and let you suffer with whatever you get (it's your fault for throwing them a curveball). So I try to make it as easy as possible for them and not complain or demand much. If I actually get a place to plug into AC power and they send me a working cable so I am in the board I feel like I got really lucky and it's going to be a great gig.

And then as the years go by I start seeing the same sound guys over and over again and they remember how easy it went last time and become really helpful.

If I know ahead of time, I’ll have a single stand with mid level side clamp and a 421 (hoping you’re a tenor guy) and something on top for your flute. Probably a separate vox on boom so it can swivel into your keys position and also close to your horn position. If I’m shy of channels we might try sharing the vox and flute depending... I absolutely want your keys, sax and flute and / or vox on separate channels if at all possible.

Key is up front communications. I don’t mean when you show up at the gig but a week or two in advance. ...gives me time to incorporate you and everybody else into a reasonable festival patch which is how I like to roll. Stage plot and input list for every act, combined into a master schedule of numbered channels. Every cable laid out has a key number that maps back to the master chart. The master chart references the stage box channels which map tho the board. Takes me a few hours of pre show time but day of it makes all the difference.

The other thing they don’t tell you in Festival Sound Guy school... you don’t always get the same crew or stage manager. So this stuff has to be crystal clear and easily communicated to festival staff. If not, you end up doing it yourself and the schedule goes to cr@p...

There have been a number of shows when I have dropped in an FOh guy to mix and worked with crew for a few sets so they can get a sense of the system ...

 

[Cowboy in Latvia]

I've dealt with both sides of the board in the last 5 years and I gotta say, the sound guys/gals who are fixing it on the fly have my vote for the one with the harder gig. Yeah, I may sound like crap as a musician but in our "NOW, NOW, NOW!!!" world, there's no substitute for time when it comes to getting a good mix. I nearly bit my boss's head off when he was complaining about the sound when he wasn't listening to what the FOH guys were asking for while cutting the rehearsal short. I'm glad I'm gone from that place since his actions will most likely lose the best sound company in the country.

Moral of the story, the FOH peeps have enough poo to deal with and their bosses or the contracting company/idiot don't make it easier. Frankly, most will let the bass be the afterthought since the ones writing the checks don't even know what a bass is supposed to sound like.

 

[klokker]

It gets worse, much worse. If this is the worst so far, you're lucky.

+1. You could hear the bass.

 

[jmon]

Yes indeed!

migrating from side stage to FOH a few times can be an eye opener... frankly it should be required training for anyone that aspires to play live...

I’m on vacation;tonight. Playing a fair with a really good sound guy. Nice Nexo setup with a couple of line array cabs setup as point source each side and juicy cool Nexo double 18’s. All I’m taking is a GK mb-115 combo, pedal board with DI and 2 bases... Livin’ Large.

Tomorrow and Sunday I’m back at the festival lug. Sunday is my day at Waterfront Blies Fest in Portland. mostly i’ll Be helping with changeovers as they have Yoda at the board. Guy has golden ears and I love working with him as I learn something every time out... and then of course tear down... Happily one of the smaller stages. 6 per side hangs instead of 24... much more my speed for the 5th day in a row.

I’ve actually done this a couple times. I consider it cross training. Get in their shoes for a bit and try to understand the job. It’s not easy. At all.

On the solution side I usually Mic my cab rather than use a DI. If the soundperson is cool with it. Allows me send them the tone I’m really going for. I provide the mic (a nice one).

 

[AndyPanda]

I absolutely want your keys, sax and flute and / or vox on separate channels if at all possible....

Key is up front communications. I don’t mean when you show up at the gig but a week or two in advance

Yeah, we give them a stage plot weeks/months in advance and the sound guy is usually just looking at it for the first time as we are pre-staging while the previous band is playing.

Part of the issue is that this band has huge drum set plus congas plus timbales/toys (three people) and 5 vocals. It is rare that the sound guys has more than one channel left over for me. It is also rare that they have a monitor for me and it's most rare that they can give me a monitor mix that will work (usually the entire band shares 4 monitor mixes and nobody wants or needs to hear my sax/flute at levels that I need in order to hear them over all those drums and percussion) and even if they have all that, they usually don't have time to do any sound check once they've sorted all the feedback on drums/perc mics .

Another issue -- though this may be unique to my situation (playing so many instruments). I may play 5 songs without touching the sax then I'm grabbing the tenor with my left hand while I'm playing B3 parts with my right hand and quickly clipping the horn on my strap and taking a solo and then back to keys again ---- and during those 5 songs when I wasn't playing sax, the sound guy has turned my mics off because he heard a drum or percussion mic feeding back and assumed it must be my sax mic. By the time the sound guy realizes I'm taking a sax solo and turns the mic on, the solo is over. Dozens of times they've setup a 421 for me and when I start the sax solo, the mic is off and I just swivel back to my own mic that goes through my keyboard mix (that I always keep at the ready for just this sort of thing).

And sometimes we get great sound guys and plenty of channels/monitors/mixes and then it's terrific!

 

[4Mal]

I've dealt with both sides of the board in the last 5 years and I gotta say, the sound guys/gals who are fixing it on the fly have my vote for the one with the harder gig. Yeah, I may sound like crap as a musician but in our "NOW, NOW, NOW!!!" world, there's no substitute for time when it comes to getting a good mix. I nearly bit my boss's head off when he was complaining about the sound when he wasn't listening to what the FOH guys were asking for while cutting the rehearsal short. I'm glad I'm gone from that place since his actions will most likely lose the best sound company in the country.

Moral of the story, the FOH peeps have enough poo to deal with and their bosses or the contracting company/idiot don't make it easier. Frankly, most will let the bass be the afterthought since the ones writing the checks don't even know what a bass is supposed to sound like.

I know this won’t be popular... I generally line check the bass and leave it. Bass is easy if it isn’t too loud. If it is and I can’t get a positive response, the solution is obvious... what can be problematic is a questionably tuned kick. If I can get that right, I’ll give it a tight 50 hz pump and notch at 80... after that on the fly I start working on bass tone. I’ll try to slot the bass around the kick. As a bass player it’s important to me that the low end is architected well. It does not go above the line for vocals and overall balance though...

 

[Clemouze]

I don't complain about my bass tone
I was super loud and audible

I complain about the way they told me " Your tone was not good, You have to work on it"
While I could had adjusted it with a knob turn.
It was RUDE


And apparently he was the only one not liking my tone so...

 

[punchdrunk]

Get the best DI you can afford and learn to work with the soundman. He isn’t paid by the talent, and has little concern about the artist vision. Give him a clean signal and kindly/succinctly tell him what you’re gunning for. Also, it shouldn’t take you hours to set up... unless you’re playing for The Who or something, it would probably be more valuable for you to learn the Zen art of knowing your place in the big picture, and that time management is a massive consideration for all parties involved. I’m def not saying that the guy was right or that you were wrong, but working bassist eventually learn that introducing more elements into the equation often translates to a higher potential for malfunction/mishap and as a result tend to distillate into minimalist/purist.

 

[Clemouze]

Get the best DI you can afford and learn to work with the soundman. He isn’t paid by the talent, and has little concern about the artist vision. Give him a clean signal and tell kindle/succinctly tell him what your gunning for. Also, it shouldn’t take you hours to set up... unless your playing for The Who or something, it would probably be more valuable to you to learn the Zen art of knowing your place in the big picture, and that time management is a huge consideration for all parties involved. I’m def not saying that the guy was right or that you were wrong, but working bassist eventually learn that introducing more elements into the equation often translates to a higher potential for malfunction/mishap and as a result tend to distillate into minimalist/purist.

Get the best DI you can afford and learn to work with the soundman. He isn’t paid by the talent, and has little concern about the artist vision. Give him a clean signal and tell kindle/succinctly tell him what your gunning for. Also, it shouldn’t take you hours to set up... unless your playing for The Who or something, it would probably be more valuable to you to learn the Zen art of knowing your place in the big picture, and that time management is a huge consideration for all parties involved. I’m def not saying that the guy was right or that you were wrong, but working bassist eventually learn that introducing more elements into the equation often translates to a higher potential for malfunction/mishap and as a result tend to distillate into minimalist/purist.

Thanks good advice if I need to do more lives, but on the other hand we play only a little live and really want to show to the public our sound. We want having control on it.
I even think I prefer not playing than playing without MY tone.
So yeah we will ask more precisely before each potential shows and chose in function of this availability to have control
Not good or bad, just a preference !

 

[kcducttaper]

Sounds like it might be time to for your band to invest in your own in-ear monitor system. For the FOH mix, I like to get the instrument's tones all dialed in before sending it to the FOH guy who may or may not have any clue what's going on. Ideally, all of the EQ's and such would be set in the signal chain and the sound guy would just leave everything flat.

 

[StringslamDan]

A little more lol mids in the mix would've helped, but I think you sounded quit good overall! I liked the bright clangy sound, and I think it fit well with the rest of the band!

 

[Wasnex]

Sounds like it might be time to for your band to invest in your own in-ear monitor system. For the FOH mix, I like to get the instrument's tones all dialed in before sending it to the FOH guy who may or may not have any clue what's going on. Ideally, all of the EQ's and such would be set in the signal chain and the sound guy would just leave everything flat.

Trying to dial in what the audience hears from the stage is a bit misguided IMHO. The acoustics tend to be very different where the audience is seated, and it's likely the PA speakers will translate the sound very different than you anticipate.