That's true, but any EQ required for those differences *should* be done at the master level and not per channel.
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That's true, but any EQ required for those differences *should* be done at the master level and not per channel.
s0c9
Supporting Member
Oh no, not at all.. In my experience, *most* folks I put on stage have no clue to where their instrument fits in the overall mix and what their sonic range should be. When I say most, I'm talking guitars, keys, bass, and other string instruments. Brass is generally not an issue.
eg: keys players who insist on playing the lower registers and walking all over their bassist.
Unfortunately, that's truer than it should be. I've done sound where the keyboardist has some huge muddy low end going on that just makes everything muddy as heck. In this case, the OP stated that they've been playing for a while and done some recording, so I assume they're familiar with instrument placement in a mix.
s0c9
Supporting Member
Did you listen to their posted vid at all?
Keys, drums, twangy bass, guitar and one vocal. Not that difficult for the average mix-on-the-fly festival guy
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Did you listen to their posted vid at all?
Keys, drums, twangy bass, guitar and one vocal. Not that difficult for mix-on-the-fly guys
Yep. You're right, it shouldn't be hard to mix. I'm a sound guy too I could get a good sound dialed by the end of the first song easy. Just because it's not hard to mix doesn't mean you'll get a good mix though. My point is, the band ought to do everything in their power to make the sound guy's job as easy and uninvolved as possible.
Edit :
Please keep all in mind we were not playing this mini festival just to play.
We were playing because we were told everything will be recorded, pro set up,and we will get super cool videos.
That's why we were expecting our perfect tone !
If not that, we ever won't agreed on playing for free on a festival. Not our thing
Salut à tous, this is my story
Chapter I : Context
Playing in a little rock band, 3 years old, original songs. Only 5 years of live experience. We made our first album all by ourselves, super proud of it. You can check Cosmocracy Inc. on YouTube, Soundclound and Bandcamp. The album is named A Ride Across Your Mind.
So we are pretty experienced in crafting our tone, since we mixed album and jams and played mainly live without soundguys.
My bass tone is well established. Very clangy. 70 jazz and Rick, geddy Lee thingesque. I hate boomy stuff.
My Playing style also !
Have a LOT of effects, all set up during HOURS and HOURS of tweaking To have MY tone everywhere. ( HPF, LPF and more important my cab simulation pedal to give my personal tone to soundguy )
We were contacted by someone organizing a 2 days festival ( 5 bands a day ) in an activity Center in our town. "House of youngs and culture "
" Maison de la jeunesse et de la culture "
Ok the deal was : no cash earned ( very common in France, I don't like that ) BUT a pro stage , pro sound , pro soundguy and more important we will be filmed from several points and recorded !
NICE it's at 10 minutes in car from rehearsal room and we are lacking Good live shots ! We agreed.
Then I asked about balances checks and soundguy and gear, giving our technical road sheet.
They answered me " 30 minutes between each band to installation and balance check. No stressour sound guy is a pro , 30 years into that , everything will be fine "
At this time, I knew it will have bad ending..!
Ho yeah I am SUPER PICKY about my tone and I fear the soundguys tweakings making my bass disapear of the mix.
They asked me if I wanted to play on their bass amp. NO WAY ! I take my gear !
Chapter II : discovering the stage
Ok we bring all our stuff.
We were able to see the 2 previous bands.
1) some youngsters named " Z generation " playing covers like metallica and motorhead.
Bass is a warwick like. I can't hear the bass, only feeling subs. Ok maybe that's the tone they want
2) some olders playing jazz and bosa nova stuffs.
Bass is a goldy Spector. I can't hear the bass, only feeling subs. I SEE the bass guy doing some cool but inaudible things with his fingers. Ok not good.
I go to talk to the sound guy number 1 about the recording. " will it be only a stereo mix or each channel will be given to us ? " ( allowing us to rework the mix )
Him : There will not be any sound recording.
Me : Argh. Only the audio from the recording Ipads there?
Him : No recording, only video.
Me : Ha. *looking at him *
Him : *looking at me*
Me : * going back to my band table *
Too bad !
Chapter III : the "balance"
I took approx 10 minutes to instal my cab and head and pedalboard and quickly checking knobs.
Obviously no electricity sector output in the front of the stage for my pedalboard ( it was mentioned in the technical road sheet we gave them )
So I play in an inconfortable place to not being in the back ( I am a front bass player )
Can't move a lot while it is the biggest stage we ever play. Super....!
Soundguy asked for my XLR output.
Me " only jack output from my cab sim pedal at one end of my amp, using it line out "
Him " Ha ! 'Mokay.." * connecting his DI BOX while being not happy me doesnt wanting to use his random amp with XLR pré-EQ*
( it was mentioned in the technical road sheet we gave them )
The checks :
Voice singing - OK
Guitar Playing - OK
Keyboard Playing- OK
Then soundguy asked for bass check.
Me, being not ready yet with all those cables to stretch, taking 1 minute to play few notes.
I played 5 seconds and he said OK.
HMM ?!
Obviously the public was already here and waiting for the show to begin.
The speakerman then introduced us !!
NOT READY WARNING ! No drum check ( drum was already here from previous bands ) and worst we not even checked all the band at one time !
No feedback monitor checks ?!
Everybody starting to yell at the end of the introduction.
Ok we have to play right now I Guess
( maybe it was our mistake )
Chapter IV : The show
Between the 3d first songs we had to ask some requirement about the monitors ( more guitar , bass etc )
My bass on monitor was extremly trebly. More than usual.
The show was super good , video at the end of this post. Well I thought I was not in tune at the end of every songs Ok.
In the middle of the show I check my amp knobs ( wich were not precisely adjusted before the show )
Ho man.. my GK treble (7kHz ) were between 10 and 11 o'clock while I usually play it at 9 o'clock.
Ok I wont adjust it, the soundguy already adjusted those harsh trebles for the public, and if I touch it now I will disapear of the mix * I WAS THINKING *
Chapter V : post show
I asked the soundguy if my tone was alright , I found it harsh
He : " Well no you had A LOT of trebles. Some Rickenbacker Like "
Me and my drum player :" Ho yeah ? Cool ! " * being Rush and Yes fans *
Him : " Well not cool . I had no subs to send to subwoofers.. "
Me : " But.. you adjusted it right ? "
Him * going angry * : " No I can't create what is not existing !! There were nothing under 200 Hz "
Me in my head : " ok.. The only sub oriented device is my high pass filter at 80 Hz so I don't understand "
Him : " I see you worked your tone but there is a little more work to do. Next time we should take the signal direct out of your bass for subs "
Me : " I have all my effects "
Him " The subs don t need effects it will be ok "
Until I use a volume pedal or clean boost or two compressors LIKE THE ONES I USE EVERYTIME I GUESS.
The bass check took 5 seconds ! Come on !
You know I have something called a BASS KNOB in my amp. Could have adjusted it if asking !
Then the next band bass player came on stage and asked if he could use my bass amp
Me *looking at all those LEDS of effects stuff of my gear , like a spaceship controlboard * : " hmm it is pretty personalised. What do you want tonely speaking ? "
Him :" I don't know. A bass tone ! "
Me in my head : " Ok goodbye I take everything."
He used the first stage bass amp.
We then saw the next band.
Power trio AC DC style
The bass and drum kick and low tom drum were all mud. 0 definition. My nightmare !!
Is it what the soundguy wanted for me ?
Glad I sculpted the tone a lot before sending it to him ! No way a soundguy will do that !
I think they had to adapt the band tone to room but NOT to craft the band tone !
Chapter VI : Conclusion
According to audience :
My bass was really loud and little harsh BUT we had the best sound !!
No mud no boom boom no frequency fight. Just a super cling clang bass !
Ho man those Gallien Krueger trebles knobs are very powerfull..!
The video and sound were recording with a camera, I did a slight mastering on the audio :
Thanks for reading View attachment 3466557
Sorry for the gig. That had to be really frustrating to say the least.
I don’t gig with anything that complicated however. I just send a pre EQ XLR feed to the board. Active bases are always set to flat, Fender Basses with volume and tone controls wide open. My Basses have fresh round wound strings, and I rarely if ever have an issue with a sound guy. Usually what I get from the sound guy is after the show, something like “Man, does your bass sound great!”.
Most sound guys, if they want to keep working as sound guys, do their best. Frankly it’s a high risk thankless job. I always try to be as respectful as possible, and work hard not to make their day worse than it probably is.
BTW, Kudos on having a production sheet for your needs. Too bad this guy couldn’t read, or didn’t have time too.
s0c9
Supporting Member
+100%
It's a pleasure working with seasoned musicians who have that stuff down..
I've done far too many "battle of the bands style" gigs where the headbangers think they need their 1000w Marshall stack turned up to 12, the drummer is trying to pound the kit to dust and wonder why no-one can hear their vocals.
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I think you have it backwards. The Master/system EQs are used to dial in the system so it sounds nice overall. With high end PA's, a program like SMAART is typically used to get the system flat, and then some minor tweaks are implemented for taste. Once the system is dialed in, channel strips are used to dial in individual instruments.
The only piece I can add to the equation is that it is quite normal to ring out the monitors well ahead of time, so your monitor channel(s) were likely already aggressively EQ'd if needed.
The FOH mix sounds decent to me, given its a phone/tablet mic. I would not assume it is accurate in terms of frequencies or representing the lows/subwoofers.
Too bad about no board mix. I suggest a decent little field recorder or Zoom Q2N for much better quality FOH captures, including dialing in whether or where there is a low-cut.
I have added a Behringer UFX 1604 to my small PA so that I can indeed record multi-track audio on the fly, for my festival sound providing. This is the first year I've used it, picking it up secondhand last fall. I record pretty much everything, and put the tracks on Google Drives for the bands/acts to access if they want the files.
Behringer UFX1604
The FOH mix sounds decent to me, given its a phone/tablet mic. I would not assume it is accurate in terms of frequencies or representing the lows/subwoofers.
Too bad about no board mix. I suggest a decent little field recorder or Zoom Q2N for much better quality FOH captures, including dialing in whether or where there is a low-cut.
I have added a Behringer UFX 1604 to my small PA so that I can indeed record multi-track audio on the fly, for my festival sound providing. This is the first year I've used it, picking it up secondhand last fall. I record pretty much everything, and put the tracks on Google Drives for the bands/acts to access if they want the files.
Behringer UFX1604
I agree on a high quality 2 track recorder. In a festival situation, when bands asks me to record them, multitrack or otherwise I always say no. A board 2 track mix is backward, a mirror image of how loud each instrument is, so vocals a re very loud and drums disappear. My board has multitrack capability, but if I'm busy, as discussed in this thread, I'm not going to fiddle around with SD cards. I'm busy. If I forget to arm tracks, or even hit record, the band gets upset 'We lost 15 seconds of our first song!!!!' To keep it all fair and good, just no. 99% of the time a Zoom 2 track on a tripod gets you a good result, and has audience noise for a live feel.
Hard to be clanky and twangy with a p bass
Clanky and Twangy may be my next band name; it will be industrial americana, see.
Do the French prefer cheese with their whine? Sorry, I couldn't resist!!
Sorry, I couldn't resist!!
A) I have nothing useful to say about your issue, so I should shut up... but...
B) I'm watching all your videos and enjoying them all a lot, so I thought I should post to say so!
So.. thanks to that sound guy for creating problems so that I get to learn about you and enjoy your music that I would have otherwise missed!
B) I'm watching all your videos and enjoying them all a lot, so I thought I should post to say so!
So.. thanks to that sound guy for creating problems so that I get to learn about you and enjoy your music that I would have otherwise missed!
yeah I hear that. That Behringer board I use is probably too small for most Pros. It does record with one push of the button, and another press makes track markers on the fly. I do it as a bonus service to acts I've worked with for over 10 years now, and who have an otherwise good/fun attitude. That Behringer will only record 16-bits to SD cards (including 4K cards); to get 24/48 I must connect a USB hard drive. I would prefer that acts/bands actually did have an SD or otherwise USB drive interface fast enough to chunk 16 tracks at once, whether they have signal or not, the machine records them (there is no arming of tracks). Then they just have their files that same night.
It's also a really cool tool for band recording, or even a standalone for solo/small ensemble stuff. And like any mixer today it also will work with DAWs, which makes for a bitchin' DAW interface.
I only run a small system with 20+year old Peavey mains cabs, and about 400watts of subwoofer, and a couple of monitors. Dual 31-band EQ for monitor/mains, and I put a BBE Sonic Maximizer on Aux 4. Haven't really figured out the BBE and haven't used it much. The compressors on the board, plus 2 channels of standard FX , and of course the channel EQs, all had that system sounding better than it ever has, and you know, the joy of that, working hard to serve the music and getting it sounding as good as possible. Except the blown horn. Replacements sent to site did not match item description, ah well. Too late.
Made that side of the stage sound like it had a sock over it, of course. But the shows all went on! We were still working on getting the electricity on til almost midnight the night before I had to start at 11am 
ninjas
Not the kind of tone that I go for, but there is nothing wrong with that.
My wife and I sat on the back porch and watched your video while drinking a couple of beers. We both thought that y’all sounded good.
Good job. Especially working under the constraints that you had to deal with.
My wife and I sat on the back porch and watched your video while drinking a couple of beers. We both thought that y’all sounded good.
Good job. Especially working under the constraints that you had to deal with.
- Oct 18, 2012
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The worst sound guy I ever experienced was in a club. During the first set, it seemed like the guitars and vocals were getting progressively louder. I was using a wireless so I walked over the sound guy and watched him. I noticed that he boosted the guitar during solos and then boosted the vocals when the solo was over. The problem was that he never returned the guitar level back to where it was before the solo. I watched him do this several times. It looked like the sliders for the guitar and vocals were racing each other up the board. I also noticed that I couldn't hear the kick drum and my bass was barely audible. I asked him to bring the kick drum and my bass up in the mix and to add a little mids and highs to it. I also asked him to lower the guitar and vocals. He put his hands in the air and said "There's a lot of knobs on this board. It might take a while". I reached in and set everything to where it sounded better and told him to not touch anything unless there was feedback. I went back to the stage and told the guitarist to boost his volume during the solos and back it off when he was finished. After the set, the owner of the club said he noticed me talking with the sound guy and asked what was going on. I explained what happened he told me the guy was new and obviously didn't now how to run sound. He then offered me the job as the house sound guy. I declined the offer.
Yep, this.
Having done my fair share, including a bunch in Europe, my approach is this. Be unfailingly nice to the stage crew even if one of them says something snappy or tells you something that doesn't fit with what you usually need in a sound check. It's the best way to ensure the best outcome. On these 30 minute turnaround stages, the crew is looking for line checks, not sound check. Everyone in your band should have that clear. That's why he said 'Merci' after 5 seconds. He had your signal.
Also great advice to be set up in such a way as to be able to give the FOH your signal through a good DI, ready to go.
