Nashville Number System: Is that all it is?

[DrummerwStrings]

I don't know what they are paid, but they often denigrate those who don't play jazz as if you aren't really a musician unless you play jazz. And that jazz is the only valid music for the intellectual elite because music other than jazz is just for knuckle dragging buffoons.
I like listening to some jazz, but a lot of it is boring and seems to be more oriented toward showing off technical facility than actually making music.
Hope you make all the money you want. But, lets look at it this way:
Billy Gibbons is woth $45 million, Victor Wooten is worth $5 million.

Could replace 'Jazz' with 'Classical' in that paragraph. Many traditional Folk musicians around the World probably said something similar too.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

At a certain point, if we measure success in dollars, I think we've missed 99% of the substance.

Measuring in Legacy might be a more qualified rule. However, that might be left to much interpretation.

+1 Key word was Million: not much difference in quality of life between $5m & $50m. Legacy is tricky, too - JS Bach was mostly forgotten for a few generations after his death. Basically, both of 'em are ok.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

i just slide around till the warble stops.

BASS PLAYERS UNITE!

in modest seriousness...why the surprise at it's simplicity? I believe that simple is its sole purpose. so the musicians can quickly and simply play a song.

Think of it as hazing a newcomer. Rookies have to run around town looking for stuff on a shopping list that doesn't exist, and when the rookies have to tell the veterans they don't have the stuff the vets get a good laugh. Want to learn more about NNS? Well, there isn't any. (Thanks to this post I now know there's more notation than numbering chords). I felt silly looking for more to NNS too - when I learned about it earlier I wasn't told it was also called NNS.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

A jazz musician plays thousands of notes for hundreds of people.
A rock musician plays hundreds of notes for thousands of people.

I understand their angst, but the reason seems to escape most of them. Jazz is a higher art form, just like fine art. The problem is, to appreciate it takes some knowledge of the art form.
My wife studied art and is very good at it. We look at the same painting and I see a pretty picture. She goes into color balance, brush stroke technique, composition, etc.

Agree with caveat - which Jazz. Up to Bebop, Jazz was dance music.

Likewise I'm not a big fan of Abstract Art. Putting a dot on a 10' x 10' canvas doesn't move me, seems more of a platform for critics to compare their theories. I start to lose interest when artists are more focused on how they are saying, than what they are saying.

EDIT: Bonus points for clarity - I wish the Academy agreed.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

Well, as one of those folks who has shed plenty of blood, sweat, and tears doing Schenkerian analysis at the graduate level, I am perhaps a little too invested in minimizing misperceptions of what it is and what it's not.

But yes of course I was just scratching the surface, both because it IS off topic to this thread and also because that's all it took to show that your understanding of Schenkerian analysis is incorrect. As is your assertion that it's been around for "centuries."

A Reminder that nowhere is Politics as cutthroat, for less at stake, as at the Academy.

Can someone get Tenure writing how Schenkerian analysis can help us uninitiated learn about NNS? If not, could someone post what the rest of us are missing by not using this tool (perhaps in another thread...)?

 

[DrummerwStrings]

Thank you! It's always satisfying when a long term project finally comes to fruition.



I'm not a Schenkerian scholar, but my experience with it is that it is more of a "zoom out" button that allows the analyst to view the larger scale harmonic topography of long piece of music; kind of like a "Google symphony" version of "Google earth". In my limited experience with it in grad school I found the concept itself extremely interesting and useful and the specific analytical machinations much less so.



This is how I am beginning to understand NNS, as simply another vernacular or interface used to express the same basic information. In teaching both traditional and jazz theory, I begin from the perspective that they are basically the same melodic/harmonic system with different stylistic ornamentation. This would make sense, since the melodic/harmonic content of jazz is based on the model of western European music. It is really fascinating to compare the counterpoint of J.S. Bach and the compositions and improvisations of Charlie Parker as regards what happens on the downbeats of harmonic changes. The results, when viewed from a zoomed out big picture perspective (neo-Schenkerian? ) are so close as to be nearly indistinguishable.



Agree.

Same source - early Jazz musicians did learn Western European Music, & were in military bands.

Is it safe to say I should learn my scales & NNS before Schenkerian analysis techniques? If there's a succinct Schenkerian analysis 'for Dummies', please PM me.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

The 2 chord being "2m" in NNS, and "ii" in Roman Numberals. I like the "ii" better.

& that's why we don't mostly use Roman numerals - 3 is much easier to read & write.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Same source - early Jazz musicians did learn Western European Music, & were in military bands.

Is it safe to say I should learn my scales & NNS before Schenkerian analysis techniques? If there's a succinct Schenkerian analysis 'for Dummies', please PM me.

I would learn enough about traditional Roman numeral analysis to understand how chords are related to each other within larger to alities, including secondary function chords. This opened a lot of doors for me by explaining a lot of things that I understood intuitively but couldn't logically break down step by step when needed. From what I can see in this thread, NNS is kind of a spinoff of traditional analysis, or a vernacular of it. Schenkerian analysis is an interesting concept for a more global umderwtanding of large scale works (and sometimes smaller ones), but the practical applications are not as obvious.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

This may be a slight continuation of another CL rant thread, but I think there's some merit, so starting a new thread.

The Nashville Number System. Can somebody please tell me it's more than just: I chord, ii chord, iii chord, etc... Seriously. There has to be something more, to give it such a grandiose name as "The Nashville Number System". I mean, please tell me there's at least some number to change the key of the bridge or modulate up a half step in the 3rd chorus. Something. Maybe even a number for a secondary dominant, say a major VI chord instead of a minor vi chord. And I won't even rant about adding a 7th to any of those, we'll leave that for another day.

Why is Country music stuck 60 years behind everyone else? And why do they perpetually claim to make inventions of things that were invented 60 years before they "discovered" it.

"We use this advanced music tool called the Nashville Number System. We're so smart. Don't know it? *scoff* You take a chord, and then turn it into a number!!! Then you can use that number in any key you like. We're so smart." --- "Dude, um, we've been doing that in Jazz for like 80 years now" --- "Nuh, uh" --- "Umm, seriously, we learn all songs in 12 keys. Transposition is expected daily" --- "What did you call me?!" --- *facepalm*

You make some points that seem valid today, but not from the time they are focusing on.

Country music, like most folk music is learned by listening and repeating what you hear, it is taught aurally, not visually.

The players most skilful in this form usually do not read as there is not need to, they play together as the music is not of a complicated nature in construction, but it can be skull wise and feel wise.

When sound hit motion picture, and sound started to be recorded the game changed, all of a suffer the need to communicate became important.

Now as musical knowledge does not equate to musical talent and talent does not equate to imagination, then a great singer who happened to write a great song may no nothing of how to explain it to those outside their genre that would expect a score or at least a chart.....maybe the singer does not even read and write.

back in the 20s, 30, 40, etc reading and writing were not skills every one had, so a simple way to communicate to musicians that had the feel and the skills was needed, but not confine them.....so since most people can count, or be taught to count, then numbers is just using a skill they had...the same a stab is using a skill we have.

An interesting point about the early days of movie soundtracks was that all the musicians were orchestral and all could read.

But if you need music that was not classical then you may get the sound, but not the feel...the sound track will sound bland.
the studio system started to mix its musicians, strings and woodwind were mainly orchestral, but brass could be players and orchestral...the blend gave it a freer sound.
Can you imagine a 1930s jazz score being having the feel required if played by orchestral players? On the other hand can you imagine trying to disciple players to record that may not play the same thing twice?

So numbers reflect easily the musical idea of the folk genres, it is about repeating what is played, not analysing it, its function is to put all players on the same page...it understands that classical or formally taught players can always come down to a level. rather than expect those who cannot to go up a level.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

the great Lee Sklar

Yes, he is. I've always been a big fan of Lee Sklar's bass-lines.

Sklar has more musicality and documentable experience than 99.9% of TalkBass membership put together.

Oh, YES!

If he's using NNS

It would me sometime (if ever) to figure out those proprietary notes from your posting that the Great Lee Sklar made for himself only! It's not some "pure and easy-to-read" NNS.
(We can ask our TB member, MalcolmAmos to interpret it).

Anyway.
NNS notation system has nothing to do what I think about that simple and easy to understand chord progression notation system.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

My take on NNS. It started with the studio musicians in Nashville as a way of writing out a chord progression on a scrap of paper, and that scrap of paper could be use in any key. From that it grew as a way of changing keys quickly. One artist would want to perform in A and another would want D. NNS lets you do this quickly and you would not have to transpose on the fly, or change your sheet music. What most forget is NN people play from NN sheet music, or someone calls out 1-6-4-5-1 as a chord progression that this songs will use. Another thing we need to take into account, NN number sheet music is in the key of one. It's ready to be moved to what ever key is now needed.

As a bassists playing praise music which is 99% roots to the beat, and if you visualize the major scale box with scale degree numbers the NNS is a quick easy way to hold your own, and get started in a Praise band. Once you know the key move the box's one to the root note of the key and play the numbers within the box. For example, the following is ready for any key.

.1...........3..............4............1
Amazing grace how sweet the sound
.........1.........................5
That saved a wretch like me
. 1............3...........4..........1
I once was lost, but now I'm found
.........1..........5.......1
Was blind but now I see


The NNS for guitar guys is a little more complicated as they are forming chord patterns and strumming more than one note at a time. They have to know what chord to form with the 1 - 4 - 5 chord in what ever key is being used. I just move my major scale pattern down to the tonic chord's root note and play the numbers I have transposed on my sheet music.

If I am playing from fake chord where the note name is shown I find the root in first position and then add any other notes of the chord using scale degree numbers, aka 3-5-7.

Trying to make something more than that out of NN is beyond what it was designed to do. Of course you could use standard notation rest and or rhythm notes, if needed. It's a tool and can be used many ways, but, it does have limits.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Is there a NNS site like ultimate-guitar?

 

[Tepidedit]

This may be a slight continuation of another CL rant thread, but I think there's some merit, so starting a new thread.

The Nashville Number System. Can somebody please tell me it's more than just: I chord, ii chord, iii chord, etc... Seriously. There has to be something more, to give it such a grandiose name as "The Nashville Number System". I mean, please tell me there's at least some number to change the key of the bridge or modulate up a half step in the 3rd chorus. Something. Maybe even a number for a secondary dominant, say a major VI chord instead of a minor vi chord. And I won't even rant about adding a 7th to any of those, we'll leave that for another day.

Why is Country music stuck 60 years behind everyone else? And why do they perpetually claim to make inventions of things that were invented 60 years before they "discovered" it.

"We use this advanced music tool called the Nashville Number System. We're so smart. Don't know it? *scoff* You take a chord, and then turn it into a number!!! Then you can use that number in any key you like. We're so smart." --- "Dude, um, we've been doing that in Jazz for like 80 years now" --- "Nuh, uh" --- "Umm, seriously, we learn all songs in 12 keys. Transposition is expected daily" --- "What did you call me?!" --- *facepalm*

I see this is an old thread, and I don't think it's been covered, but your missing the function of NNS. It is focussed on producers who will take a writers track and listen to the song and do the notation in one play through (its impressive to see). There is then only need for relative pitch as they are just understanding the chord changes. This then provides an outline/roadmap of the song that is shared with session musicians who will then make it there own, writing parts in the session based on that outline/roadmap.

Additionally, It also makes it much easier if, for example the singer asks to change key, the notation still stands.

For the average player outside of this type of session work, I think it might be great if you are cramming songs for live and you can listen, notate it and be playing it on the second time of hearing it (gig with 10 original songs you don't know tomorrow night? With this skill - no problem!)