Double Bass NBD - Kinda bass guitar (viol)

[40Hz]

having to maintain two sets of inversion fingerings all over the neck depending on instrument would break me!

I can understand that.

Although I play guitar I doubt anybody who actually does would ever call me a proper guitarist. I mostly use various diatonic open tunings, remember my music theory, fly on instinct, and somehow manage to play acceptably when using them. It’s a complete 180 from how I approach bass playing.

But I won’t pretend I always know what I’m doing on a technical level as far as each tuning is concerned. It’s more stream of consciousness than anything else. I see it as being kinda like Joni Mitchell - except in my case it’s without her musical genius or caliber of talent. Still, it gets my musical brain out of its comfort zone. Which is never a bad thing if you want to continue to grow as a musician.

 

[Koshchei]

I can understand that.

Although I play guitar I doubt anybody who actually does would ever call me a proper guitarist. I mostly use various diatonic open tunings, remember my music theory, fly on instinct, and somehow manage to play acceptably when using them. It’s a complete 180 from how I approach bass playing.

But I won’t pretend I always know what I’m doing on a technical level as far as each tuning is concerned. It’s more stream of consciousness than anything else. I see it as being kinda like Joni Mitchell - except in my case it’s without her musical genius or caliber of talent. Still, it gets my musical brain out of its comfort zone. Which is never a bad thing if you want to continue to grow as a musician.

I'm on an deep dive into jazz harmony right now - everything with intent so that I can develop a really intimate working knowledge of both the theory as well as how it fits on the neck. It also applies super well to bass, particularly stuff like the Barry Harris method.

 

[LaFaro01]

Right on the money! The double bass is actually a member of the viol family, not violin - the flat back, sloped shoulders, and fourths tuning give it away.

Thank you for finally deciding this age-old question... but what do you do with roundback doublebasses???

 

[Koshchei]

Thank you for finally deciding this age-old question... but what do you do with roundback doublebasses???

Sloped shoulders or no? I jest.

Of course, nothing's ever clear -- how many bass viols were converted into cellos when they fell out of popularity, also? Violas da gamba and da braccio are closely related enough that they probably want to rethink the wedding, if only for the sake of the children.

 

[groooooove]

Sloped shoulders or no? I jest.

Of course, nothing's ever clear -- how many bass viols were converted into cellos when they fell out of popularity, also? Violas da gamba and da braccio are closely related enough that they probably want to rethink the wedding, if only for the sake of the children.

View attachment 5458811

most of finest viols were converted in the 19th century. they were seen as useless the way they were - including examples from makers like maggini.

 

[Koshchei]

most of finest viols were converted in the 19th century. they were seen as useless the way they were - including examples from makers like maggini.

A local maker has a converted and resized Bertrand in his shop. It's worth a fortune, but it's a cello now.

 

[groooooove]

A local maker has a converted and resized Bertrand in his shop. It's worth a fortune, but it's a cello now.

on the one hand, they see a lot of use as a cello so that's cool.

but of course.. it's a shame so many of the finest examples have been modified beyond a restorable point.

 

[Koshchei]

on the one hand, they see a lot of use as a cello so that's cool.

but of course.. it's a shame so many of the finest examples have been modified beyond a restorable point.

On the plus side, these 17th and 18th Century instruments still exist in some form.

There are also some incredibly skilled viol makers who can build superior instruments using the far better tools and materials that are available today. Relatively speaking, a new viol is a bargain compared to an original. And also relative to a cello because there's none of the magic bean mythology attached to an instrument that's got maybe two thousand players in total around the world.

The only downside is that a new instrument takes a LOT of playing over a lot of years to fully find its voice.

 

[Eli Brockway]

This is just making me want to re-up my membership with the VdGSA and rent a bass viol the more I look at it.

Then I can wait until the college I volunteer to play with starts working on the Messiah again, show up to rehearsal with that. "Mind if I join the cellos?"

 

[Koshchei]

Beautiful Viol. Weight closer to 15kg, I think.

Nope - it weighs about 3lbs. The wood is around 3mm at its very thickest.

 

[groooooove]

On the plus side, these 17th and 18th Century instruments still exist in some form.

There are also some incredibly skilled viol makers .

The gentleman who made my double bass (and my mandolin), edward maday in new york, is a very well known gamba maker. I think his instruments - gamba or otherwise - are beyond reproach.

as far as how long the voice needs to develop, with basses it's usually 3-5 years you'll notice a tonal development. I know my bass has really matured (finished in 2020) since i got it. of course, we can't compare a 5-6 year old instrument to the work of maggini and expect age to not be a factor, but still.

I agree the standard of quality now is higher. We also have amazing access to materials. d'salo used maple, fruitwoods, spruce, etc, because he had it local to him. I wonder what he would have done with figured lacewood, cocobolo, or wenge

not many makers are using exotic (not all of those work for bowed instruments, of course) woods, but nonetheless the global world lends a hand in violin making in a way that the masters of the 17th century could not have dreamed of.

 

[Koshchei]

The gentleman who made my double bass (and my mandolin), edward maday in new york, is a very well known gamba maker. I think his instruments - gamba or otherwise - are beyond reproach.

as far as how long the voice needs to develop, with basses it's usually 3-5 years you'll notice a tonal development. I know my bass has really matured (finished in 2020) since i got it. of course, we can't compare a 5-6 year old instrument to the work of maggini and expect age to not be a factor, but still.

I agree the standard of quality now is higher. We also have amazing access to materials. d'salo used maple, fruitwoods, spruce, etc, because he had it local to him. I wonder what he would have done with figured lacewood, cocobolo, or wenge

not many makers are using exotic (not all of those work for bowed instruments, of course) woods, but nonetheless the global world lends a hand in violin making in a way that the masters of the 17th century could not have dreamed of.

Further to this, there's no mysticism about the instruments in the same way that exists for cellos or violins -- for this reason, people can agree that festooned viol sounds about the same as a regular one (despite looking like an acoustic version of Lumpy Space Princess from Adventure Time). Viol would make an excellent testbed to try out different hardwoods available to luthiers without all the noise from cork sniffers and speculators.

And with the advent of pickups, viol has every opportunity to fill a niche where a guitarist might want a bowed voice. Tune the E string to an F, and it's literally a D standard guitar tuning (or ~C# if you're going A415). Charlie Ogle sells a very reasonably priced viol as well, so there are no real obstacles other than people needing practice their asses off.

 

[GretschWretch]

This is just making me want to re-up my membership with the VdGSA and rent a bass viol the more I look at it.

Then I can wait until the college I volunteer to play with starts working on the Messiah again, show up to rehearsal with that. "Mind if I join the cellos?"

When I was in college the band director brought out Wagner's "Rienzi." The baritones got the euphonium part. I, for some reason, was Euphonion, a totally different part. The baritones played with the bulk of the brass section. My part usually rested while the baris played but did play along with the tubas, including the notes below the standard three-valve baritone compass. At the time I was using an old Conn five-valve double bell, and I could reach those lower notes just fine.

 

[groooooove]

just some fun playing the cello part on the viol.

 

[Koshchei]

Speaking of solo bass repertoire, I wonder how an arrangement of something by Frank Proto for François Rabbath would work on viol? It's amazing how capable the instrument is - switch to lighter aluminum-wound (faster) middle strings, and holy smokes can you do stuff on it.

 

[groooooove]

Speaking of solo bass repertoire, I wonder how an arrangement of something by Frank Proto for François Rabbath would work on viol? It's amazing how capable the instrument is - switch to lighter aluminum-wound (faster) middle strings, and holy smokes can you do stuff on it.

i don't think there are any C strings available that are wound. raw gut only as far as i know (and i have looked.)

the low D and G are often roundwound, and react pretty quickly under the bow.

the viol is a fascinating instrument. i will say that certain things i thought would work did not, and vise-versa. it's distinct voice fits certain things amazingly well, and other things it can seem somewhat unnatural.

viols in a group tend to blend really beautifully. the frets giving perfect intonation and the voicing just makes such a beautiful texture.

 

[Koshchei]

i don't think there are any C strings available that are wound. raw gut only as far as i know (and i have looked.)

the low D and G are often roundwound, and react pretty quickly under the bow.

the viol is a fascinating instrument. i will say that certain things i thought would work did not, and vise-versa. it's distinct voice fits certain things amazingly well, and other things it can seem somewhat unnatural.

viols in a group tend to blend really beautifully. the frets giving perfect intonation and the voicing just makes such a beautiful texture.

This might make you very happy then
Pirastro - Strings Handmade in Germany since 1798 - you can get it at the Sound Post in Toronto.

I could not live with the Aquila raw gut C that came on the instrument. It was so slow compared to the other strings, and just seemed to suck the harmonics out of the rest of the instrument. I'm using a Pirastro Aluminum-wound now, and the difference is immense. It's higher tension than the E, so I'm tempted to try an Al open-wound Pirastro E if I can find one to try to get them consistent to minimize the need for bow weight, speed, and angle variations across strings.

 

[groooooove]

This might make you very happy then
Pirastro - Strings Handmade in Germany since 1798 - you can get it at the Sound Post in Toronto.

I could not live with the Aquila raw gut C that came on the instrument. It was so slow compared to the other strings, and just seemed to suck the harmonics out of the rest of the instrument. I'm using a Pirastro Aluminum-wound now, and the difference is immense. It's higher tension than the E, so I'm tempted to try an Al open-wound Pirastro E if I can find one to try to get them consistent to minimize the need for bow weight, speed, and angle variations across strings.

no idea how i missed the biggest/ most available string manufacture option.

i'd be interested to try as many wrapped strings as possible. they don't stay in tune very well, but they react quick like a modern string which i prefer.

one of the issues with the gamba is how tightly connected to historical performances it is. this is obviously also really interesting and cool, but also stops someone like me who just wants to play the instrument the same way i play bass - i use it to play whatever music i feel like i want to pursue.

 

[Koshchei]

no idea how i missed the biggest/ most available string manufacture option.

i'd be interested to try as many wrapped strings as possible. they don't stay in tune very well, but they react quick like a modern string which i prefer.

one of the issues with the gamba is how tightly connected to historical performances it is. this is obviously also really interesting and cool, but also stops someone like me who just wants to play the instrument the same way i play bass - i use it to play whatever music i feel like i want to pursue.

We're on exactly the same wavelength here. While I certainly intend to develop my chops on Marais and Abel, I'm more interested in how its voice can be used in modern music. I don't see viol as a historical curiosity, but rather a fully developed musical voice that fell out of favour for reasons that are no longer valid (loudness, projection). With its similar tuning to guitar and bass, it's also a perfect gateway into bowed instruments for guitarists -- though it's easier to play than cello (the sloped shoulders and fingerboard access and direct bow hair control as part of the French hold), polyphonic, and arguably more sensitive to nuance due to the very light construction, so it's also a perfectly valid destination too. I haven't mapped it out exactly yet, but it seems to have the equivalent of 25 or 26 frets too, so no range concerns either.

 

[groooooove]

We're on exactly the same wavelength here. While I certainly intend to develop my chops on Marais and Abel, I'm more interested in how its voice can be used in modern music. I don't see viol as a historical curiosity, but rather a fully developed musical voice that fell out of favour for reasons that are no longer valid (loudness, projection).

100%

i definitely have gotten my technique under control where the unwrapped C is not the "problem" it was at first. but i think i'd still buy one and put it on.

or, am i robbing myself of the opportunity to refine my technique further? or, have i gotten it to more or less the sustainable place and the C string just "is what it is?"

i'm truly not sure.

i see they sell a wrapped E as well. at that point, perhaps i should try that too. only having an unwrapped D and A would be sort of interesting.

i'd like to explore string choices a bit now while i'm playing on this rental. my instrument won't be ready for likely another year (the maker has a long wait list.) by the time we're ordering strings for mine, i'd like to know what I want.

the bottom strings on my rental are pirastro, and they seem great. when my D broke i ordered a varnished gamut D that i honestly don't like very much - it's brighter in a bad way than whatever the old string was.