Neck dive... why is it a problem?

[Winton]

I'm no stranger to neck dive. My first bass was a neck-divey Thunderbird and of the 6 basses I own currently, 3 or 4 of them are quite neck-divey. My solution to this was a leather/suede strap that I got for $8 at a pawn shop a long time ago. The strap is slightly wider than normal at 2.25'', but is otherwise not as potentially intrusive as a massively wide or thick strap. I get zero neck dive in any situation when using it.

But a line I occasionally hear is... "grippy straps are a band-aid, what you really need is a balanced bass".

... why?

I mean... I guess I could see the novelty in a bass that feels well-balanced. I own a couple. But with my bass-playing habits, neck dive simply isn't a problem that concerns me. Even when I practice and am not using the strap, it's really more of a minor inconvenience than an issue of any import.

Is there something I'm missing? Can a divey neck throw your back out, or something crazy like that?

Yes, absolutely it can mess your body up. For me personally, I can’t use a regular strap anymore due to playing so many unbalanced basses. I have to use Gruv Gear’s Duo Strap all the time now. Even if I use the Duo Strap on an unbalanced bass, I get pain in my left shoulder for days. This started happening when I hit 40.
Working out to strengthen my shoulder muscles and overall core has definitely helped a lot as well.

 

[Jefenator]

If you typically play with a baseball grip on your neck, it’s no big deal at all, but, if you believe in playing with a light touch, it’s incredibly difficult to do so while you are trying to counterbalance neck dive.

That actually makes sense. And my approach on BG is somewhat caveman-like.

 

[FearNoEvil65]

Neck dive is no problem for me, all my basses balance really well. Even my 7.2lb and 7.4lbs G&Ls, the design is good and they don't neck dive at all.
Most basses that neck dive don't have any appeal visually for me (like the Thunderbird, ugly sorry not sorry).
But hey, more neck heavy basses for everyone else and their grippy straps

 

[Gizmot]

I’ve had experiences with basses that are less than perfectly balanced, but I’ve never found it a problem that couldn’t be solved by using a different strap or playing with other things like strap locks. I think that the balance issue is part of the way a bass plays and feels and it should be easy to identify during a tryout.

 

[IamGroot]

I'm sure everyone who has experienced neck dive issues that are not eliminated with a strap will appreciate you yelling at them that it is all in their head.

Sometimes you gotta shout to be heard.

Never have had a neck dive problem ever and my main axe for years was a Thumb 5 with a wide leather strap.

If somebody wants to talk about choosing gear based on neck dive in the future, fine. I will just shut up.

 

[eddododo]

I find it really bizarre how many people are saying that neck dive is imaginary or that they’ve never seen it etc..

Like maybe y’all have just played mostly reasonable basses.. otherwise you’re just plain not very perceptive, lol.
It’s fine if they don’t bother you, it’s cool if you’ve found a suitable solution for your tastes, it’s great if you think that comfortable instruments are for the weak. But the notion that it somehow doesn’t exist is bizarre, and the assertion that it couldn’t be an issue for someone else is asinine.


Now for a sprinkle of positivity, my preferred, and generally unanimously successful for basses I care about, is to move the bridge-side strap button up higher.

 

[SteveCS]

Playing a diving bass for any length of time is frustrating and tiring. [2]

Like this one...

 

[retslock]

I don’t own any basses with neck dive nor will I ever. It’s a flaw I don’t tolerate. If you’re ok with it good for you. My fretting hand is unencumbered as it should be for optimum freedom of movement.

 

[Ricky Rioli]

Why is people preferring to avoid neckdive a problem?

And so on

 

[mcnach]

It doesn’t. It’s just something people repeat without seeing it in practice.

Yeah, I (and others) are making stuff up about what *we* experience. We're twisted that way I suppose.

 

[Polfuste]

By the past, i've played some basses with neck dive, especially a Warwick thumb 5. I've tried to accomodate, larger strap, X-strap (two shoulders old concept) but never felt really comfortable. At this time, i didn't imagine i could modify a bass. It was like a sacred object i didn't allow me to rework .

Then i went back to 4 strings with a nice Cort Artisan B4 which was well balanced. It was a blessing.

Then i made the luthier course, build my jazzbass copy, with a body a little too small and a 24 frets neck (the Fender FMT shape i've tried to copy with a little lack of precision in my work )
Neck dive was back. But with a difference: after this experience, i've lost all fear to dismantle a bass.
So i've re-shaped the head shape to make it rounder than the initial Fender shape, removing a little wood. Then i've added a little extension on the upper horn to move the strap button closer to the 12th fret, and i've modified the bridge side strap button and put it higher than the bass axis initial position. Neck dive was done.
Later, i decided to change the tuner by hipshot ones and it was a really good idea: the weight was half the classic one. And by this, i could remove the upper horn extension without awaking the neck dive. (so for those who still doubt, ultralight tuners are a real solution)

Then I've bought a Ken Smith burner. And neck dive was back: short horn design, very light body. So i made the same treatment than the previous bass: upper horn extension, the bridge strap button being already upper than the theoretical axis. no neck dive.

Then... (last one) the Markbass Kimandu arrived. And i must say this is the best balanced bass i never had. I didn't have to change anything, the position in perfect for my playing, my right hand is close to straight position, The low F from the E string is easy to play without discomfort. I can play it for hours

 

[Samatza]

I tend to rest the forearm of my plucking hand on the top bout of the bass. If the bass has some neck dive this seems to counteract it so I've never really had a problem.

 

[spade2you]

If you typically play with a baseball grip on your neck, it’s no big deal at all, but, if you believe in playing with a light touch, it’s incredibly difficult to do so while you are trying to counterbalance neck dive.

Mostly this. You simply don't see a great fretless player on basses with massive neck dive. The Nikki Sixx approach to bass might work on a Thunderbird...or whatever he's endorsing this week. Furthermore, playing 5 strings gets very fatiguing when dealing with neck dive. 6 string seems like it would be too cumbersome.

In my case, I'm short. Very short. Neck dive goes hand in hand with short top horns and makes the first position reach much greater despite the same scale length. I have a Rob Allen 35" scale with a long top horn and saddle placement as far back as it can go. It "feels" like my old 32" scale Fender Urge due to Rob's improvements. The resultant baseball bat grip also makes your fingers "shorter" because of the wrist angle and putting more of your hand behind the neck.

Most guitarists and bassists like to debate technique, but have never studied it beyond trying to look like famous rock stars. I was fortunate to take a few semesters of classical guitar. Did wonders for my technique and saved my hands. The only downside is that it made me very conscious about ergonomics, not that good or bad ergonomics contribute to sound.

 

[SteveCS]

...
not that good or bad ergonomics contribute to sound.
...

Oddly enough IME they do. Good ergonomics enable you to approach (address) the instrument in ways more conducive to creating a good sound and tone. I imagine you touched on this in your classical guitar studies?

For the left hand (as a primarily fretless player) that means stopping the string with the appropriate part of the finger and with the right pressure and 'shape' of contact point. Even more important to the fretless player is putting the fingers down in the right place to play in tune - this derives almost entirely from good hand-shape, which is the first thing to suffer when ergonomics are bad. For the right hand that means enabling the fingers to address the strings at the appropriate angles and weights and at the right position along the string. Again, bad ergonomics can impede or restrict hand movement and placement which has an obvious knock-on effect. IME.

Back on topic, neck-dive can affect mobility of both hands (left hand restricted due to supporting the neck and right hand due to forearm clamping the body) and so is a double-whammy!!

 

[spade2you]

Oddly enough IME they do. Good ergonomics enable you to approach (address) the instrument in ways more conducive to creating a good sound and tone. I imagine you touched on this in your classical guitar studies?

For the left hand (as a primarily fretless player) that means stopping the string with the appropriate part of the finger and with the right pressure and 'shape' of contact point. Even more important to the fretless player is putting the fingers down in the right place to play in tune - this derives almost entirely from good hand-shape, which is the first thing to suffer when ergonomics are bad. For the right hand that means enabling the fingers to address the strings at the appropriate angles and weights and at the right position along the string. Again, bad ergonomics can impede or restrict hand movement and placement which has an obvious knock-on effect. IME.

Back on topic, neck-dive can affect mobility of both hands (left hand restricted due to supporting the neck and right hand due to forearm clamping the body) and so is a double-whammy!!

I meant that the ergonomics of an instrument by themselves don't enhance the sound of an instrument as in the shape of the guitar/bass. There's nothing inherently ingrained in the Thunderbird design that contributes to the tone that can't be done in another bass with the same core woods and electronics.

 

[thorstiborsti]

Never thought about how a neck diving bass would impact my technique but it makes sense. The only thing that bothered me was that the neck was heading towards the floor when I took my hands off it. It being a Thunderbird or SG bass.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

I can't believe this thread is still going after 7 pages.

Neck dive doesn't mean squat.

...Until it suddenly does.

This subject is often related to skeletal/nervous system problems as seemingly small as trigger finger and carpal tunnel.

There are musicians of all ages out there, who have nerve damage in their hands, arms, neck and shoulders, lower back, etc. In some cases, these problems are exacerbated by arthritis, or other diseases associated with advancing age.

Some are jocks, some are slobs. Exercise is a great thing, but the right set of circumstances can bring the biggest jock to their knees. I've seen it, and when it hits, seemingly innocuous things like a bit of neck dive can threaten your ability to keep playing.

Even something as slight as the pull on your shirt from a suede strap can be enough to trigger a bout of crippling pain for some people, or cause them to start considering another round of surgery..

It's only then that most of us get serious about avoiding triggers.

If you experience numbness or chronic pain that doesn't go away after light exercise and a hot shower, FFS go see a doctor.

In my case, I toughed it out for nearly 40 years after a fall down a flight of stairs screwed up my lower back. I liked my headstock-heavy 10 and 11+ pound basses, and there was always Tylenol an the chiropractor.

I finally started to smarten up after getting creeping numbness and referred pain all the way down my left leg, and soon got religion about sub-8lb basses. Swapping my bubinga/maple/ebony monster for a 7.8lb Dingwall with perfect hanging balance made a big difference to my symptoms.

Unfortunately, by then it was too late, and a few years later, sciatica put me flat on my face for 9 months.

Thankfully, it's been 6 years since I recovered. I still have pain, but nothing I can't live with as long as I pay attention. I'm back to gigging and cycling, two things that are very important to my sanity.

In terms of gear, I'm just as careful about amplification and project basses as I am about my main squeeze, which is why my sig is populated with lightweight hofners and acoustics these days.

I'll turn 70 this fall, and if I stay on track, I have good reason to hope that I'll still be gigging into my 80's.

 

[Skokiaan]

I'm no stranger to neck dive. My first bass was a neck-divey Thunderbird and of the 6 basses I own currently, 3 or 4 of them are quite neck-divey. My solution to this was a leather/suede strap that I got for $8 at a pawn shop a long time ago. The strap is slightly wider than normal at 2.25'', but is otherwise not as potentially intrusive as a massively wide or thick strap. I get zero neck dive in any situation when using it.

But a line I occasionally hear is... "grippy straps are a band-aid, what you really need is a balanced bass".

... why?

I mean... I guess I could see the novelty in a bass that feels well-balanced. I own a couple. But with my bass-playing habits, neck dive simply isn't a problem that concerns me. Even when I practice and am not using the strap, it's really more of a minor inconvenience than an issue of any import.

Is there something I'm missing? Can a divey neck throw your back out, or something crazy like that?

My right arm resting naturally on the bass is enough to counter any neck dive I have experienced. I never even heard of neck dive until I joined TB. It's never been an issue for me, and I've played Thunderbirds and other basses with an apparent reputation for neck dive.

 

[SteveCS]

I meant that the ergonomics of an instrument by themselves don't enhance the sound of an instrument as in the shape of the guitar/bass. There's nothing inherently ingrained in the Thunderbird design that contributes to the tone that can't be done in another bass with the same core woods and electronics.

Got it

 

[jellymax]

I play certain bass lines well. If I got a bass with no dive I could then rip, and melt your face simultaneously!