Theres a tear in my beer
there'll be no neck diving here
you are on my bass playin' mind
after drinking all these beers
I have shed a million tears
there'll be no neck diving here
Ok Ive gone too far, Im out.
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Neck dive...
- Thread starter Marc DLarosa
- Start date
Theres a tear in my beer
there'll be no neck diving here
you are on my bass playin' mind
after drinking all these beers
I have shed a million tears
there'll be no neck diving here
Ok Ive gone too far, Im out.
my main bass (the one I use in the band) has a severe neck dive, but it's a problem you can almost solve with a very very large leather strap (mine is 10 cm wide). I must say I would never go for such a compromise for a bass I could easily replace with another "similar" sounding bass (when I started playing I put my eyes on the Thunderbird... never bought it). But if you want aluminum neck you can go for neck dive or spend 3000€ for EGC (which I don't have
)
)
scotch
It's not rocket science!
- Nov 12, 2006
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Between the weight of ones plucking hand forearm & the use of the fretting hand to support the weight imbalance (which is effectively lever-assisted by the function of the forward strap button and strap) I've always thought that "neck dive" complaints are nit-picking in the extreme. Unless what you're really having trouble with is 'wearing' your bass and not so much 'playing' the thing.
Of course, I'm also aware that my experience is limited to well,.. my own! ;-) So I guess neck-dive really could be that debilitating to some folks. I guess holding up a few extra ounces can be a challenge? I wonder if a test of how much weight is actually being supported by the fretting hand is practical? After all, you're simply not holding the entire weight of the instrument with that hand. Unless you really screwed up how to use the strap!
Of course, I'm also aware that my experience is limited to well,.. my own! ;-) So I guess neck-dive really could be that debilitating to some folks. I guess holding up a few extra ounces can be a challenge? I wonder if a test of how much weight is actually being supported by the fretting hand is practical? After all, you're simply not holding the entire weight of the instrument with that hand. Unless you really screwed up how to use the strap!
The fretting hand is not meant to "support" any weight at all
You can manage to play a bass that costantly moves while you play, of course, but it feels very unconfortable and slows you down because you don't "freely" move up and down the neck if you have to support its weight
That's just wrong
The way you make a neck diving instrument "playable" is "blocking" it in the right position someways, not supporting the neck with your fretting hand
Yes Extreme nit-picking and I find I have the same experience as you.
I have owned over 40 very different electric basses in the last 25 years. Most of them were inexpensive second hand instruments. Not one of them did I ever perceive neck dive to be a problem. I have never ever felt there was burden of supporting the weight of the bass in my left hand. I have never experienced resistance to having full capability in technique precision or speed anywhere on the neck because I felt I was having to support any bass guitar by the neck.
I'm guessing that if someone points out imbalance, identifies it as neck dive and that person focuses on that as an important criterium for bass design, then that person will get hung up on that issue. Possibly becoming over sensitive to it and not recognizing how easy it is to fix and or adapt.
There is nothing wrong with someone wanting a balanced bass. And when someone is buying a nice bass, I hope they get the one they like best for whatever reasons that they like it!
However since this thread is here I'll throw my 2 cents in. Normally I'll look past the neck dive nit-pickers in the same way I don't recognize the neck dive issue itself. I know it may be there but I just ignore it. This thread gives me a chance to focus on my perceptions and nit-pick the nit-pickers.
I see comments on talk bass from people that perceive neck dive from a picture or one encounter in a store and make a fuss about it here on talk bass. I instantly believe their reasoning is out of balance. That their opinion is too heavily based on a desire to portray that they have some special insight about bass design and not on actual experience of adaptability to variety and observations of other good qualities of many instruments suffering from neck dive. They seem to be the same people who complain that a bass came from the factory with high action and bad intonation and write off the instrument as flawed without asking someone to adjust the truss-rod and bridge. These nit-pickers suffer from perception dive. They could probably benefit from a full setup and adjustment of their perceptions of instrument design.
I think it is important to be versatile. To be able to switch between scale length, string spacing, 4 5 or 6 string, hollowbody, solid body, and instruments with different balance points, is a valuable asset as a bassist. You never know what tool you might need to use. To me the neck dive nit-pickers seem too rigid in their perceptions to adapt to the varying tools and demands of bass playing. Thats alright, I guess it means more basses and gigs for us non-nit-pickers to choose from.
No it's based on the reality of bass design. No special insight needed.
I don't think this is correct at all. Even in this thread the people most against neck dive are experienced players. I think the opposite is true. The majority of players who view neck dive as a myth are players who went with those basses initially for their looks, not because they tried every bass in the store and found it the most comfortable. I mean, look at the statements in this thread. "Man, what's a few ounces" "all you need is a huge strap and constant right arm pressure" "are you playing the bass or wearing it", and so on.
I have three basses I enjoy equally. One has neck dive. I use a wide strap, the right arm, etc and I enjoy the heck out of it. But I'm not going to deny that the dive exists. Because it does, and I have no problem recognizing that it could be a deal breaker for some. Why deny it? What the point?
The fretting hand is not meant to "support" any weight at all
You can manage to play a bass that costantly moves while you play, of course, but it feels very unconfortable and slows you down because you don't "freely" move up and down the neck if you have to support its weight
That's just wrong
The way you make a neck diving instrument "playable" is "blocking" it in the right position someways, not supporting the neck with your fretting hand
While it is logical to give the fingerboard hand every advantage as possible. I disagree with "not meant to support any weight at all." Why isn't the hand "meant" to support some weight? We are not playing little instruments. We have to compromise some to accommodate the scales and mass of low frequency instruments. Look at examples from other instruments.
A trombone slide should move freely and you want every advantage you can get to quickly go between notes. in first position(slide all the way in) the instrument balances and is supported well in the non-slide playing hand. As you extend the slide, the weight gradually shifts to the slide playing hand. It has to hold some weight. The further the slide goes the more weight there is. Do trombones have variable opposing counter balance to offset this? No, the player takes that into account and accommodates having gradually more weight as the slide moves. Feeling that weight shift in the hand gives a feedback to the player helping them recognize spatial position while they read music, listen for intonation, count rhythms, and watch a conductor.
For bassists as we move our hand that is supporting a little weight on a bass neck we can sense changes to the weight feel and recognize it as a positional reference cue. The lower the note on the neck the more weight we feel in the hand. I think that is very useful information in the theatre orchestra pit trying to read a chart and watch a conductor. I perceive it to be enough information to be helpful when shifting hand positions. I'm not claiming I can accurately hit 13th fret just by feeling weight variation alone, but it is part of the sensory experience that gets my hand to where it needs to be accurately and on time.
Of course we can't be supporting an excessive amount and expect to play well. It should be very little weight, but there has to be SOME. Enough weight in the hand when playing to provide a good positional feedback I think might be enough to cause a small amount of neck dive when the bass is just hanging on the shoulder. I want to feel that when I am sitting too. I don't "block" the bass in the "right" position. I get it to where the bass can rock back and forth on my thigh and I can still feel a just a little weight in the neck. Each player will find an amount they like. What would happen if we didn't have that feedback? There is only one instrument with out tactile feedback. The theremin. If you have ever played one you may have noticed how hard it is to find and keep accurate pitch without that tactile feedback. If you haven't I hope you can try one some day. I think you will really start to appreciate a little weight in the fretting hand.
I didn't say it doesn't exist. I just don't recognize it as affecting my ability to play/enjoy any particular bass. Edit.... I have never gone with a bass initially for looks.
@Danielle Meyer I don't doubt you can effortlessly play any instrument, neck diving or not, as I can see you are a professional player and sure have skills far above average. I don't even doubt you can adapt your technique to even find some advantage in a slightly neck diving instrument. I deeply respect that believe me.
BUT
There are principles in design such as ergonomy or putting people in condition to "use" a tool without wasting their effort in just keeping it up in position
I may be an amateur in playing bass but I am a professional in design and let me say, in good design there is not such thing like that YOU, user, have to adapt yourself to a poorly balanced "whatever". It applies to sword forging or motorcycle design or any other category you want.
No luthier will ever advice you to "build a neck diving guitar so the player can find an advantage in feeling the weight", I'm sincerely amazed you're able to find that advantage but for "regular use" that's not the way it works.
BUT
There are principles in design such as ergonomy or putting people in condition to "use" a tool without wasting their effort in just keeping it up in position
I may be an amateur in playing bass but I am a professional in design and let me say, in good design there is not such thing like that YOU, user, have to adapt yourself to a poorly balanced "whatever". It applies to sword forging or motorcycle design or any other category you want.
No luthier will ever advice you to "build a neck diving guitar so the player can find an advantage in feeling the weight", I'm sincerely amazed you're able to find that advantage but for "regular use" that's not the way it works.
Last edited:
scotch
It's not rocket science!
- Nov 12, 2006
- 6,944
- 2,081
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- Please see Profile for Endorsement disclosures
The fretting hand is not meant to "support" any weight at all
You can manage to play a bass that costantly moves while you play, of course, but it feels very unconfortable and slows you down because you don't "freely" move up and down the neck if you have to support its weight
That's just wrong
The way you make a neck diving instrument "playable" is "blocking" it in the right position someways, not supporting the neck with your fretting hand
While a violin, for instance, is a different thing it still involves "fretting" (closing) notes. Violinists don't seem to be slowed down. Probably most instruments involve simultaneous note fingering and supporting of weight.
The overall weight of the instrument factors in hugely. Hofners are horrific neck divers, but so light it can be easily overcome by a wide strap or just a little clamping action with your elbow. Nothing worse than a heavy neck diver (coughTBirdcough).
I can't play violin but I would not compare it to bass or guitar, very different neck section and lenght, different position and fretting hand movement. You don't use your thumb as a fulcrum in violin.
Bass and guitar playing position is more similar double bass or cello, and in double bass or cello the weight of the instrument rests on your chest, not on your fretting hand.
Your body is different from mine. Your experience is different from mine. You may not experience neck dive but many people do. That does not invalidate your experience any more than it does ours. Your point about versatility is irrelevant to the subject at hand and seems to be a thinly veiled attempt at an insult to people who have a different experience than you. Consider what you’ve said.
Effortlessly play any instrument, No. And I'm pretty average. I have been playing for a long time. Any way thanks.
I understand that a good designer or luthier would not intentionally design an instrument severely out of balance. i am not talking about the equivalent of hanging a brick on the headstock. I actually have more experience in instrument design manufacture and repair than I do performance. So I get this. Instrument design is a series of compromises between tone, intonation, playability, cost, and appearance. Cost is the compromise that says the most about the balance of the rest (tone tuning playability appearance) and its obvious so lets set that aside for now.
Example: If I want amazing tuning and tone I may choose a very long scale and possibly fanned frets. Those choices right there affects playability drastically as you have a long moment arm (source of neck dive) and now the player has to adapt to multiple scale lengths in one instrument which changes playability. To help playability a very long upper horn is created. Okay great no neck dive, but it is needing some strength. The horn is fattened up to the point it meets the neck. To me this is not aesthetically appealing and the boss doesn't think we will sell many because it doesn't look like a conventional bass. Start over etc....
Designers and luthiers HAVE to make a compromises because they value some design aspects more than others. We all strive for the perfect combination and some find more success in balancing the qualities of an instrument but no one gets 100% on designing tone, intonation, playability, cost, and appearance.
"like that YOU, user, have to adapt yourself to a poorly balanced "whatever". It applies to sword forging or motorcycle design or any other category you want." Unless it is custom one off instrument made specifically for me I have to adapt myself to the instrument somehow. A poorly balanced motorcycle would be disastrous. But some motorcycle steering geometry is designed for performance in corners and agile response. Some have a geometry that is stable on long rides but not nearly as responsive. And chopper steering geometry is very unstable at low speed but it does look pleasing to some. I do get to choose to adapt my self to these choices.
Playing bass, riding bikes, and designing things is not effortless. We have to be adaptable and make compromises and not be overwhelmingly focused on one aspect of a product that we don't see, feel, or hear the whole.
Its possible that impressionable new bassists visiting talk bass see a bunch of neck dive complaining and then think they can't play their bass well due to neck dive because cost was a design compromise. Learning to adapt to what you have is part of learning how to do anything. Being able to look past neck dive because a bass otherwise plays and sounds fantastic gives a lot more options to the bassist.
I haven't read the entire thread, but I play an Epiphone EB3 quite a lot, and find it very easy and comfortable--even after three hour-long sets. My right forearm does help compensate, a wide strap with a rough underside helps (Clayton makes an ideal one for about $25); of course, I am only 67 and neck-dive could become a real problem when I get old
Not at all the case in any way shape or form. Since we were on the subject of neck dive I shared my thoughts about instrument design and bass playing and bassists perceptions in relation to that.
NO Insults intended towards anyone veiled or otherwise.
ok I understand what you say. I speak as a heavy and heavily neck diving bass player so I understand.
I chose that bass because I wanted that unique sound only THAT bass could give me so I agree if you learn to look past what I consider anyways a HUGE defect gives you lots of options. As I said before, I make this compromise because, with that particular bass, I believe it's worth it. I still believe more often it's not
It definitely was the case in what you typed out. Regardless of what you intended. That’s why I asked you to consider what you’ve said not what you were thinking when you said it.
As far as versatility goes, most of the really great players I admire play one bass or one style of bass their entire careers. They don’t need versatility.
