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need advice on downsizing

I'm a big fan of the Avatar 1x12s. One alone can get by for most practice. Add a second one and you have a small, tight and loud setup for a very fair price. Even though I've moved into more "pricey" cabs, I still have my two Avvie 1x12s and I use them quite often.
 
Joe P said:
...it turns out that a good basic rule-of-thumb is; for clean, hi-fidelity tone, if you want both amp and speaker to safely approach their limits at about the same time (that 'same time' part can be a big part of an optimization), then if the speaker rating is about twice the amp rating, then you'll be just about optimized.

Am I totally misunderstanding you, or did you say this backwards? (I.e., didn't you mean to say, "if the amp rating is about twice the speaker rating,...")
 
MuzikMan said:
That was a very lucid, well thought out, articulate rebuttle. :hyper:
Thanks, Man.

I'm home from work; sick with the flu. You're just seeing about three and a half hours of an audio-obscessed technician's fever-influenced thoughts.

I've been pretty frustrated with some of the dogmatically spoken advice I usually see here concerning choosing speaker and head ratings. It takes just a little more wisdom and knowledge, and a little more understanding of the user's requirements to make much more intellegent optimizations.

The most common 'potentially wrong' advice I see is this obiqitous, dogmatic general proverb that "your amp should be at least twice the rating of your speakers". This is does not hold-up all-alone as 'blanket-statement' like that. That statement is only a good rule-of-thumb if the requirements are that 'you want your speakers to be as small as possible, and you want to produce an authoritive, hi-fi clean-tone'.

That over-simplified proverb would be much-fixed if it were restated "your amp should be at least twice the rating of the loudest average power that you'll ever use it for - assuming you want a clean-but-authoritive, hi-fi sound". It could be pretty-well all tied together, yet still be reasonably true in a general sense, by adding "if you've already chosen an amp by the above criterion, and it's as small as as you dare have, and now you want to select the weakest speakers that you dare to go with too, then choose them to be half the rating of the amp". The question is begged "should bassists really put their rigs together by these priorities, in this order??".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you simply break that proverb apart into a few of the important facts that it's derived from, and consider them seperately, we can be offering MUCH more accurate advice to the many questions that we're trusted with on this subject:

- The main trick to authoritive, modern, hi-fi, CLEAN-tone (IF that's what you want) is to be able to accuratly preserve short-duration dynamic transients all the way from the string to the audience, that exceed average waveform peaks by about double-the-power.

- Short-duration, non-clipped, low-distortion waveform excursion headroom is NOT included into amp power specs, but IS included into speaker specs. This confuses some. You may simply double your required average continuous power requirement to approximate the amp headroom that's desireable for this kind of sound-feel.

- If a bass signal waveform is clipped - whether it be by an effects pedal, or in a preamp or power stages of an amp... doesn't matter - then most any amp, if it's volume is pushed, will be able to truly output considerably MORE than it's rated power; theoretically, for a worst-case, hard-clipped square-wave as-compared to a pure, simple sine wave (both of these extremes unlikely for normal bass guitar playing), an amp with a perfect, 'stiff' power supply (won't be the case either, but a heavy-duty, over-built amp could get close) can make available to a speaker TWICE the power it would be capable of for the pure sine - that's abslolute worst-case.

- A clipped waveform is a valid, reasonable sound for making music with a bass. This axiom goes along with 'it's valid and reasonable for a bassist to never require a certain clean, dynamic, hi-fi 'headroom'-sound out of his amp'.. DANG-IT!!

- If a waveform is compressed - like with a compressor-limiter - then usually the average power over time is appreciably more than the same practical volume settings without the compressor - both in the amp and speakers.

- Certain not-super-uncommon kinds of compression - like fast-attack, higher-ratio, lower-threshold setups - tend to reduce the benifit or need for waveform excersion headroom, but this is partially offset by some more technical considerations; things like supply sag from input transformer regulation or resiviour capacitance, or heat-related issues. This makes the 'have twice as much amp power rating as you'll need at the loudest gigs' still hold as a reasonable rule.

- The only reasons to have your total cab power-handling capability 'just barely be enough' are reasons like if you're looking for minimum size and weight, or minimum cost, or that it's somehow what you're just 'stuck with it' or something - otherwise, there's nothing wrong with having more or bigger speakers than you need (there are a couple reasonable arguments for advantages gained from 'a larger cone area', in fact). An exception to this may be that I've read reports of some cabs inwhich their sound somehow blossoms or otherwise firms-up or gets better 'when you drive them hard', but I don't think most cabs are like this.

- Uhh

... ... ...

I think my fever's getting worse. ...Must rest now...

Joe
 
This is a blatent bump.

I spent just about seven hours yesterday composing replies #39 and #43. The subject of choosing amp and cab power ratings is what I see as some of the most over-simplified advice that I see here on TalkBass. I mean over-simplified to the point of often being bad advice.

I have attempted to put into words some of what I think is the problem, and the solution.

Many musicians put much trust in - and even invest much hard-earned money based on - the advice that's so freely and generously given here. I truly think that somehow entrenched in this subject there is too much over-simplified, uninformed dogma that has great potential for steering people wrong.

See what you think, will you? I think that this could lead to a stimulating, enlightening, valuable argument at worst. At best, it could even further consolidate TB's reputation as the motherload of wisdom on the subject of the Bass.

Joe
 
Another cab option you could look at is the Eden D-210XLT. It won't have nearly as "deep" a sound as your 215, but it has good low mids that sit well in the mix with guitar and drums, and in my experience puts out just enough sound to convincingly play in a rock band. Its also pretty easy to carry (though obviously not as easy as a 1x12).

They are plentiful on the used market, which I think is always the way to go when you are on a budget.
 
Joe P said:
Hey, Passinwind: did I explain it better this time?

Bro, I'm in awe, good show! :cool:
I could probably find something in there to dispute, just because that's how I was brought up or whatever, but I certainly don't have the time or heart for it right now. Folks, writing stuff like that really takes a lot of effort, especially with the sometimes tough audience we have here. It's like the peer reviewed technical standard that scientific researchers have to deal with, something I have some experience with.

Sorry you came by the time for all this by getting sick though. :hmm:
 
I'm running a PLX3002 bridged into a single Eden 112XLT cabinet. The amp puts out 3000 watts and the speaker is rated at 400 watts. I've been running it that way for about two years now and nothing has blown up yet. Eden makes some mighty good cabinets I guess. :D
 
Joe Beets said:
I'm running a PLX3002 bridged into a single Eden 112XLT cabinet. The amp puts out 3000 watts and the speaker is rated at 400 watts. I've been running it that way for about two years now and nothing has blown up yet. Eden makes some mighty good cabinets I guess. :D
There: That's what I'm talking about! Now - if you would have gone with the prevailing proverb, you'd be afraid that you're doing something wrong, but you're not. I assume that you don't run much more than 400W average power with that rig (maybe the loudest you run is 300W or 200W or 93W) - but of course if you run a hi-fi clean sound, then you're amp should be rated at least twice whatever the loudest you do run is... mm-hmm, ah-ha...

Perfect!

Joe
 
All this juicy technical discussion is gassing me up a bit(but I will fight it). What about the wattage needed to cleanly pound out a low Bb when compared with a low E, both at the same "percieved" volume?? A$$ming of course that you had an impossibly built 100% flat cab with drivers made of unobtainium..
 
What I do is watch those lights on the front of the power amp. The red lights almost never flash, but if they do I turn it down a little bit. With this much headroom there is absolutely no distortion or farting. But if I'm playing outdoors and need to power up maybe four 8x10 cabinets, no problem. ;)
 
lowphatbass said:
All this juicy technical discussion is gassing me up a bit(but I will fight it). What about the wattage needed to cleanly pound out a low Bb when compared with a low E, both at the same "percieved" volume?? A$$ming of course that you had an impossibly built 100% flat cab with drivers made of unobtainium..
OK. I got out the old Fletcher & Munson Equal Loudness Curves for this one...

At 100dB the average ear is just about flat all the way between 25Hz and 1000Hz. Once you get down to 80dB, you need to kick-up 40HZ to about 87dB for it to sound like the same loudness as 1000Hz does, and 30Hz has to be turned up to about 89dB - I guess that would make the answer: 89-87=2dB. At 70Hz you need like 84dB and (squint...) 86 or 86.5dB for 40Hz and 30Hz - so we're at like 2 or 2.5dB. At 60dB it goes to... 81 and 84 - so now we're up to 3dB to equalize 30Hz to what 40Hz sounds like, but +24dB to make it as loud as 1KHz sounds!

Joe
 
Joe P:

Well written advice. I, too, have difficulty agreeing with the statement "always have twice the amp power that your speakers are rated". I have fried speakers from too much power (melted voice coil) in some instances and over-excursion in others, despite some reports from people that they "have never destroyed a speaker from too much power".


Your advice follows some of the JBL monographs which offer three different situations: 1) carefully controlled situations (studio monitors for example); in this case the "amp twice the speaker rating" can be used; 2) most PA or hi-fi use, in which case the amp should equal the speaker rating, or 3) the heavily distorted/clipped musical instrument scenario (when the user WANTS to clip the amp) in which case the speakers should be twice (or more) than the amp's rated RMS output.

Unfortunately this sort of discussion, in certain threads, has deteriorated into techno-bashing. And unfortunately, the new guy (that wants to know how much power to have), hasn't learned to recognize the sound of an amp clipping, or how to EQ for a room, or some of the basic principles that must be employed when using high-powered amps and cabs. (When I started playing, a 100 watt amp was huge...nobody had amps that could push kilowatts....)
 
nashvillebill said:
Joe P:

...Your advice follows some of the JBL monographs which offer three different situations: 1) carefully controlled situations (studio monitors for example); in this case the "amp twice the speaker rating" can be used; 2) most PA or hi-fi use, in which case the amp should equal the speaker rating, or 3) the heavily distorted/clipped musical instrument scenario (when the user WANTS to clip the amp) in which case the speakers should be twice (or more) than the amp's rated RMS output...
Exactly! In JBL's much more concise set of guidlines here, we see in #1) the 'hi-fi with extra transient headroom; 2) thick harmonic content and/or low average-to-peak power ratios over time - especially dynamically-compressed material - and/or 'lightly-clipped' or 'no-headroom' sort of compression; 3) extremely high harmonic content, like with square waves. Let's remember that the square wave can be generated anywhere in the signal chain -- it can be the source itself, like a synth or oscillator; a distortion pedal; preamp; all the way to the finals in the power amp - it doesn't matter.

Take a situation like mine: for the band I'm with now (classic rock power trio), I always run fairly hard compression, most often use light overdrive ('soft clipping'), and occationally hard-clipping (distortion/fuzz). When you feed even a moderatly-compressed signal into any kind of clipping circuit, the combination of those two processes really-really ups the average power available in a power amp. My bass has a dynamic 'envelope' (for you old analog-synth guys) more like an organ than a dry bass guitar - I'm leveling-out the dynamic envelope AND adding harmonics. This is NOT that uncommon of a sound!

Bassists who run a little bit of 'grind' with their preamp - you know: a little more of that old-school, pushed tube-head rock-bass oomf - are able to make the same power amp (or power section in a head) dissapate appreciably more 'work' - and heat - to their speakers than one who runs the 'hi-fi-headroom' sound. If the hi-fi-headroom guy turns up his amp too much - like so his average power is more than about half the power that's able to be provided for those dynamic attack-transients (remember the old rule?) - he'll get a little bit of clip-limiting just during those short attack transients; he'll LOOSE the hi-fi sound; he won't like it, and decide that he needs to play quieter or get a bigger amp.

It doesn't matter if the speakers can handle ten-times more than the amp can put out, or if the amp can put out ten-times what the speakers can handle - as long as you never actually bring either of them to their limit (this limit can be reached from practical need for volume with a given tone, OR accidentally - that's what makes me a little scared of too-much AMP headroom). Speaker/amp optimizations like this are based on the assumption that you may actually reach one of the limits!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
..So to wisely apply the three JBL guidlines to bassists and bass amps, we have to be cognisent of what the resulting condition will be when a rule is rightly applied - what's the goal and purpose of the guidlines? Here it is: You want to find a relationship between amp-rating and speaker rating wherein if you need to push one of them to their limit (whether that be a 'fidelity'-limit or a 'safety' limit) the other one is just-about approaching its limit too! Practiacally-speaking, we can make this even easier if we assume that as volume is increased, the first limit the amp will likely reach is its fidelity limit (and most likely won't actually be damaged, whatever you do), while the speakers are all-too-likely to reach their reliability limit before they 'warn' you by first sounding bad.

So - with everything boiled-down to this point, allow me to re-state the goal of the guidlines: We want to find a relationship between amp-rating and speaker rating wherein if you need to increase your volume to the amp's limit of fidelity, the speakers will be closely approaching - but not yet exceeding - their limit of dependability (they won't fry!).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Condition #1) Un-compressed pure, clean, dynamic playing - the hi-fi feel: amp rating twice the speaker rating.

Condition #2) Dynamically-compressed sound - either by 'volume compression' (as by a compressor/limiter) or 'wave compression' (like from 'soft-clipping' or clipping-off just the attack transients): amp rating equals the speaker rating.

Condition #3) Distorted bass or fuzz bass: amp rating half the speaker rating.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The final issue that needs to be figured-in here to be sure the right decision is being made has to do with the amount of time that one of these conditions is under effect. The duty cycle for a speaker to be safely over-powered is very short. In the case of the hi-fi-headroom sound - where there are attack-transient related power excersions that are twice the speaker rating or more - we're only talking about several tens of milli-seconds, a few times a second; this is only like 15% or-so of total overload time at MAX. Spread 20% of double-power over the whole second, and it's only increasing the average over each second by 20%, and the speaker can average-out the extra heat second-by-second - then consider all the time that the notes naturally decay below the limit, and it's a WASH. A different story is if you extend an overload to many seconds - or a whole minute or two - NOW you're building up heat in the vioce coil. This means that if you play ONE SONG at condition #2 then you have to go with condition #2, and if you play ONE SONG under condition #3 then you have to go with condition #3!

Wishing you all the best -

Joe
 
nashvillebill said:
...unfortunately, the new guy (that wants to know how much power to have), hasn't learned to recognize the sound of an amp clipping, or how to EQ for a room, or some of the basic principles that must be employed when using high-powered amps and cabs...
Exactly again, Bill of Nashville.

...that's why it's a BAD idea to tell Newbies - especially if they express that they are inspired by punk or hardcore or thrash or somesuch! - that they should get a speaker that's half the rating of their amp (!). There has been repeated WRONG advice given-out here on TB by launching-out this 'amp-twice-speaker' false blanket statement. These fine folks fall under Condition #3.

Now we're getting somewhere here.

Thanks,

Joe
 
Joe P said:
Exactly again, Bill of Nashville.

...that's why it's a BAD idea to tell Newbies - especially if they express that they are inspired by punk or hardcore or thrash or somesuch! - that they should get a speaker that's half the rating of their amp (!). There has been repeated WRONG advice given-out here on TB by launching-out this 'amp-twice-speaker' false blanket statement. These fine folks fall under Condition #3.

Now we're getting somewhere here.

Thanks,

Joe

you've given alot of great info in this thread. when i need a new rig for our stadium tour, i'll have to come back and read it again. but for now, my 200W head fills up the garage just fine! ;)

thanks again!
 
Unless I am running an all tube amp, the only place I want to get overdrive or distortion from intentionally is from my preamp. Distortion from my power amp or speakers will eventually fry them. With an all tube amp head, on the other hand, tube saturation and slight distortion won't fry it and the sound can be very pleasing to the ear. In fact that's one of the reasons I used to drag around an 85 pound amp head.
All these formulas and such for how many watts you need in the amp and how many watts the cabs should be able to handle are amusing, but useless. HERE IS THE RULE.
1. Buy as many watts as you can afford.
2. Buy as big or as many cabinets as you think you will ever need.
3. Unless you have roadies, don't buy anything that you can't carry
by yourself.
;) ;) ;)