Need better punch

[brianrost]

I'm amazed that between the Genzler EQ and the Bartolini EQ you can’t dial in the right midrange balance to get what you need

Have you tried Curve B of the amp contour? It’s supposed to bump low mids, then use the sweep mid EQ to locate any other frequency you need to boost or cut.

 

[Thumpin6string]

If you have an amp that can produce 800 watts and you can't hear it over the guitars, you will end up deaf and won't have to worry about it. Seriously, it sounds like the rest need to turn down.

 

[socialleper]

If you have the means, I would suggest a Barefaced Big Twin. It is a lightweight 2x12 that competes with 8x10s for volume but weight under 50 lbs. Very articulate, very quick, and not a lot of baked in tone.

Bart pickups are a crap shoot. They make so many models with different tunings that you can't just say that they have one particular sound. I have personally found them to be a little polite when you dig in. I really like the tone of EMG DC style hubuckers, but that is a very particular sound.

I haven't played the Magellan heads so I can't advise you on that.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hi all— long time since I’ve been here
Currently in a rock band with two, and at times three guitars plus keys and drums.
I’ve been struggling to dial in enough punch in my tone to cut through with clarity without cranking my overall volume too much. This especially becomes problematic when I go to my envelope filter or synth pedal (yes, I do leave dry tone in that signal chain).

My gear:
Genzler Magellan 800 head and two Genzler Bass Array 1x12 cabs.
Bass is a Kinal 5 string with Bartolini soap bars and Bartolini 18v preamp, usually running the bridge pup in series and usually with a bit of a boost at 350hz on the preamp.

Should I switch to a 4x10 cab?
Switch pickups to something more modern like Nordstrands?

Appreciate any advice.

It's my understanding that "Punch" comes from the EQ, primarily low mids.

A couple other points before you spend money on new gear. You may have some serious competition for sonic space in your ensemble depending on the overall blend. Sound cancellation can occur as well as acoustical anomalies of where you are playing can be an issue. Crafting a coordinated blend requires all hands on deck and becomes more and more important as the numbers of the ensemble grows.

One thing we not discussed is volume issue. Are you able to create the amount of dB of the right frequencies? 800 watts in efficient full range cabs is a lot of horsepower, and more than enough for most applications, but if it's not cutting it??

Anyway, hope this helps and you get it sorted out soon.

 

[Zigmundfloyd]

Ahhh the dreams of my youth

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hi all— long time since I’ve been here
Currently in a rock band with two, and at times three guitars plus keys and drums.
I’ve been struggling to dial in enough punch in my tone to cut through with clarity without cranking my overall volume too much. This especially becomes problematic when I go to my envelope filter or synth pedal (yes, I do leave dry tone in that signal chain).

My gear:
Genzler Magellan 800 head and two Genzler Bass Array 1x12 cabs.
Bass is a Kinal 5 string with Bartolini soap bars and Bartolini 18v preamp, usually running the bridge pup in series and usually with a bit of a boost at 350hz on the preamp.

Should I switch to a 4x10 cab?
Switch pickups to something more modern like Nordstrands?

Appreciate any advice.

Boxing classes.



For real though, if you need more "punch", you need a larger sound system.

Also, you could play with a pick, and hit it hard. Decent amount of compression.

 

[bcbassman]

I can't know your rig and what you are hearing but I suspect that you are assuming to set EQ before hearing what the room is giving you. Start your analysis with everything set flat. On the bass and on the amp.
Use a sound man or a wireless setup to judge what you are getting at flat, then add small adjustments to meet the room requirements. You may be surprised at what really sounds good. Most low end does not need to be boosted on bass. It takes over and is magnified by natural acoustics. Try it and see.

 

[P. Aaron]

You need this ...
View attachment 5248595

I only look at the WD800 pics 'cause I have one & besides the typical tone-volume controls, I have no idea what all those other knobs do.

so, I try the pictured settings, see if there's ever a substantial/subtle difference.

 

[chadds]

Ahhh the dreams of my youth

I love those shots. Those poor animals and birds. The 371 with the two cabs could put out forest fires. Maybe we should augment forest fire crews with this setup.

 

[shastaband]

This especially becomes problematic when I go to my envelope filter or synth pedal

There’s your problem right there. Plug bass directly into amp. Much more punch. HPF can help with problem rooms and stages. For bass, less (effects) is more (punch), especially when playing live.

 

[SteC]

I had this Hartke setup before I switched to 12's (they were loud) and before I finally settled with Mesa.
View attachment 5248954

You're making me want a second hartke 210 lol

 

[MrLenny1]

I ran a GK MB500 with two 1x12 GK Neos stacked that really worked for me.
My axe was a Tobias 5 Active. Sound, It's always a struggle.

 

[Auer]

Ahhh the dreams of my youth

Still a valid dream, and for some, reality

 

[Koshchei]

Hi all— long time since I’ve been here
Currently in a rock band with two, and at times three guitars plus keys and drums.
I’ve been struggling to dial in enough punch in my tone to cut through with clarity without cranking my overall volume too much. This especially becomes problematic when I go to my envelope filter or synth pedal (yes, I do leave dry tone in that signal chain).

My gear:
Genzler Magellan 800 head and two Genzler Bass Array 1x12 cabs.
Bass is a Kinal 5 string with Bartolini soap bars and Bartolini 18v preamp, usually running the bridge pup in series and usually with a bit of a boost at 350hz on the preamp.

Should I switch to a 4x10 cab?
Switch pickups to something more modern like Nordstrands?

Appreciate any advice.

Pluck harder for passages that need more punch.

 

[Auer]

I love those shots. Those poor animals and birds. The 371 with the two cabs could put out forest fires. Maybe we should augment forest fire crews with this setup.

Also good for keeping mice, rats, roaches etc out of the basement. Works for termites too.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

some will disagree with me here, but in decades of working in all types of musical situations, and in many loud rock bands, I find a passive P style or J style bass cuts better than ANY active bass. Even better if you're running a tube amp (or something that emulates one) with 10" speakers.

 

[lowplaces]

Appreciate any advice

Good advice throughout the thread.

This may be of help as well..
Make it punchy

 

[60bass]

I love those shots. Those poor animals and birds. The 371 with the two cabs could put out forest fires. Maybe we should augment forest fire crews with this setup.

The 371 with two 301 cabs was my rig for about three years back in the day. Never needed any PA support with that rig. Later I wanted more upper mids and highs so I added a SUNN Concert slave and a SUNN 6-10 guitar cabinet blew speakers fairly regularly in the 610 cab but it sounded real good when it was working. Eventually when I wised up I added a elect X-over for the SUNN cab and then no more blown 10's.

 

[TommyGunz]

Hi all— long time since I’ve been here
Currently in a rock band with two, and at times three guitars plus keys and drums.
I’ve been struggling to dial in enough punch in my tone to cut through with clarity without cranking my overall volume too much. This especially becomes problematic when I go to my envelope filter or synth pedal (yes, I do leave dry tone in that signal chain).

My gear:
Genzler Magellan 800 head and two Genzler Bass Array 1x12 cabs.
Bass is a Kinal 5 string with Bartolini soap bars and Bartolini 18v preamp, usually running the bridge pup in series and usually with a bit of a boost at 350hz on the preamp.

Should I switch to a 4x10 cab?
Switch pickups to something more modern like Nordstrands?

Appreciate any advice.

Sound guy here, as well as a person who plays bass casually. The band I work with had 3 guitar players, it was very difficult to mix. I am thankful we are now down to 2. Anyway, let's try to clarify your issue. Is it just YOU wanting to hear more punch on stage? Do your band mates want to hear more punch from you as well? What does it sound like to the AUDIENCE, do you need more punch out there too?

Knowing this will help. If its one or the other then I would focus on fixing the issue through the PA or the Monitor. If its every where then yeah we can just focus on your tone. I am so glad you recognize that simply turning up the volume is not a solution. Too many ignorant or just plain lazy musicians resort to cranking the volume or using ridiculously over-powered gear. Do not fall into this trap.

I didn't see you mention a compressor, are you using one? Using a compressor can beef up your tone especially if you use a slow attack time to let that initial transient really punch through.

What kind of strings are on your bass? How old are they? This can make a huge difference.

Lastly, the other 3 guitar players could be completely stepping all over you. They may need to significantly reduce their bass eq. Guitar players can love that full round sound when playing on their own, but in a band situation, especially with multiple guitars, its usually not needed and just muddies things up. Its called a BASS guitar for a reason, producing BASS frequencies is your job, not theirs. Bands I work with I often advise the guitar players to turn down their bass eq, and I put a High Pass Filter on the guitars in the PA, starting at 80hz, but I usually end up going up to 120hz.

 

[60bass]

With two or three guitars, how much low end are they running? Also with keys, is the player staying off his lower keys? If both the guitar players and the keyboard player have a lot of low end in their sound it will be completely covering you up and stepping all over your frequency bandwidth and everything will become a giant bucket of mud.

In that case I'd run a lot of mids and upper mids with just a bit of bottom (mainly for me to hear on stage) using the mids to cut through and let the PA carry the bottom end. OR the easier solution is just for everybody to turn down and let the PA carry the heavy load. That's what it's there for. Added benefit is your ears will thank you. Having been a bassist for 54 years. It took me a fair amount of time to realize the days of the huge bass amp on stage were gone forever. I now use a genz Benz NEO-Pak 3.5 or a tc RH450 with tc RS112 single 12 cabs. I usually use only one, but take two and use the bottom cab as a riser for my other cab to get it up closer to my ears. The guys I play with use small amps 15 to 30 watt and we mic everything. Any rig I've ever owned including an Acoustic 371 w/two 301 cabs can't match the low end of even one high powered subwoofer in use nowadays.