Double Bass Need more volume on stage

[BeegBass]

I currently play my DB thru a Phil Jones Super Flightcase combo stacked on a PJB PB300 powered cab. I really like the sound I get out of it. But when I play with a full band with drums and electric guitars it doesn’t seem to cut through volume wise.
I end up trying sometimes to turn the volume down on the amp and then try to turn my instrument up in my monitor to hear myself better but then I can’t ever get the sound I want out of the monitor; it always ends up too woofy or else way too thin to the point where I’m overworking my hands.
Would a preamp do the trick to give me a boost and cleaner sound overall even thru the monitors?
I know that the PJ amps already have a “buffer” built in to work well with Double Basses and acoustic pickups, but maybe a preamp would still do the trick?
I wish I could straight up match my amp mix with the monitor.

(We have started using a new Midas PA with nice speakers and we all now are in control of our own monitor mixes using M Air via an iPad, and maybe I’m just not experienced yet at creating a good mix for myself, but I still feel like I need more volume)

I just wanna be heard, and I feel like the band sounds better and tighter when they can all hear me too!
Don’t want to have to buy a new amp.
Any suggestions on DI preamps or any other ideas?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

A high pass filter might help to get more volume out of the amp since the energy is not wasted in the low frequencies.
It might also help to get mud out of the monitors.
But don‘t expect too much from the HPF only. It just gives you some boost in the meaningful frequencies.

A preamp with good eq gives you the opportunity to change the monitor sound at any time from your place. It changes the amp sound too, but start with the monitor sound and when you are satisfied with that dial in your amp afterwards.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Your band must be pretty loud if you can't hear yourself with that much amp power. I agree that the PJB gear benefits from a HPF filter - I have been using a HPF with PJB amps for year now. Just out of curiosity, what kind of strings and pickup are you using?

 

[Jay Corwin]

2 - 250watt amps, plus monitor support and you still can't hear yourself? Just curious what the make-up of your band is, because that seems like it should be enough. I don't have any experience with PJB though.

 

[brianrost]

To get more volume, an HPF can help but the next step is always more speaker cones (extra cabs) or cabs that are more efficient (so more volume out with the same wattage in). I've always found the PJB cabs to be pretty inefficient, so not as loud as you might expect for the wattage the amp puts out.

Example: my AI Coda's internal speakers have a 1W sensitivity rating of 90dB. My Bergantino HT112 has a 1W sensitivity rating of 98dB. That means the Berg is almost twice as loud when driven from the Coda, to get the same output from the internal speakers would require six times the wattage. Guess which one I use on gigs where I need to be really loud.

PJB doesn't specify the sensitivity (efficiency) of their cabs.

 

[getrhythm]

Ask everyone else to turn down? I know. Won't ever happen.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

If your PA / monitor gear is good, remember to always start out with tone controls flat. A lot of sound is ruined by people dialing tone controls out of whack. But that raises the question whether your DI from the amp is pre or post EQ?

 

[Pat Harris]

What's the instrumentation of the group? Two electric guitars, drums, upright bass? Get used to "playing blind." Seriously. There is very little way to compete, particularly if the drums and guitars have any amount of low-midrange tonal content at higher volumes. Upright bass is one of the *hardest* instruments to sit in a mix because a natural/transparent tone will get swallowed by the rest of the band. If the band isn't making sonic space for you on the stage, that's a starting point.

For the loud gigs on upright, I've stopped bringing a stage cab. I've got my HPF, compressor, EQ, and DI. That signal goes to the house, and I use IEMs for pitch reference. The last thing I need or want is a loud amp blasting directly into the back of my upright bass.

 

[Ric Vice]

What's the instrumentation of the group? Two electric guitars, drums, upright bass? Get used to "playing blind." Seriously. There is very little way to compete, particularly if the drums and guitars have any amount of low-midrange tonal content at higher volumes. Upright bass is one of the *hardest* instruments to sit in a mix because a natural/transparent tone will get swallowed by the rest of the band. If the band isn't making sonic space for you on the stage, that's a starting point.

For the loud gigs on upright, I've stopped bringing a stage cab. I've got my HPF, compressor, EQ, and DI. That signal goes to the house, and I use IEMs for pitch reference. The last thing I need or want is a loud amp blasting directly into the back of my upright bass.

What IEM's are you using, I fear this is the way I'm going to have to head eventually, for outdoor concerts, presently I fend off playing outdoors, because of the terrible onstage sound I've experienced. I'm always totally disorented by the mains overiding the monitors and the

delay that creates, even with an onstage amplifier. Could be that my ears just aren't compatible with large festival PA's.

Thanks in advance

 

[Pat Harris]

@Ric Vice , I'm just using some $100 Shure SE215's and a Behringer P2 headphone amp. Works amazingly well for many situations, including the one you described.

This allows me to play loud gigs without an amp and without a wedge. I send my signal to the FOH, and take the aux send that would normally go to a wedge at my feet, and put that into the headphone amp (has volume control), and then plug in my IEMs to that. From there, I just ask for only bass in my monitor mix. I get quite a bit of stage volume reduction, but I get all of the clarity on the upright bass coming directly into my ears. I then balance this volume with what is happening on stage and with the mains as needed.

Granted, I don't need or want a "full band recording quality" monitor mix. Even if I'm using an amp and have a monitor wedge, I'll still only put that which I absolutely cannot hear into a wedge.

 

[Ric Vice]

Thanks, Pat that was really helpful.

 

[Zbysek]

Some good tips here already. I will add another one: PJB Ear Box helps me control my pitch in noisy environment...

Invalid Link Removed

 

[BeegBass]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone!

 

[Acoop]

First off, tell the guitar and drums to turn down or you'll start bring an electric bass to the gigs. ... And yes, get yourself a decent pre-amp. A Radial Bassbone is a great low cost pre-amp, usually about $100 used, then try it in Ch A, no EQ and plug it into the effects in on your amp, if you have one. That way you're getting the amp section and the bassbone is the pre. ... You should notice a nice kick to you vol and sound. ... If you don't have an effects loop go in the front and fiddle with it.

 

[Givati]

@Ric Vice , I'm just using some $100 Shure SE215's and a Behringer P2 headphone amp. Works amazingly well for many situations, including the one you described.

This allows me to play loud gigs without an amp and without a wedge. I send my signal to the FOH, and take the aux send that would normally go to a wedge at my feet, and put that into the headphone amp (has volume control), and then plug in my IEMs to that. From there, I just ask for only bass in my monitor mix. I get quite a bit of stage volume reduction, but I get all of the clarity on the upright bass coming directly into my ears. I then balance this volume with what is happening on stage and with the mains as needed.

Granted, I don't need or want a "full band recording quality" monitor mix. Even if I'm using an amp and have a monitor wedge, I'll still only put that which I absolutely cannot hear into a wedge.

With this setup how does the rest of the band hear you? If other wedges on stage are carrying a bass signal how does this effect you?

 

[Pat Harris]

With this setup how does the rest of the band hear you? If other wedges on stage are carrying a bass signal how does this effect you?

I use this setup if there's loud stage volume and a dedicated FOH engineer. It's been my experience that most other musicians want to "feel" the bass and I'm the only one that wants to "hear" it. For me, this setup is a win/win. If you're playing through a system with subs, the band will feel the bass just fine without needing any additional monitors on stage. Low end is omni-directional unavoidable. I also am totally over with trying to compete with a slamming FOH system with a stage rig. By the time I get my rig to a volume where I can hear the amp/speakers louder than the room, the engineer is asking me to turn down because (understandably) they want to be able to control the volume/tone of the entire mix. On an outdoor festival stage, this isn't really an issue, but even in a 2000 seat theater, the proximity effects of that low end start to make things muddy with a quickness.

IMO, stage wedges should have a pretty generous high pass filter on them, so if somebody truly wants the bass signal in their wedge, they'll be getting a pretty thin/stringy/clicky bass signal. Toward that end, in a conventional setup, anyone that is off axis from just about any bass cab (this doesn't apply for my MAS cabs) is generally going to just get some washy low end mud and not a well defined tone. I think the "amp on stage so the band can hear the bass" doesn't apply in situations where there is dedicated FOH reinforcement.

If it's a loud gig with a small run-it-from-the-stage-pa, I bring an amp/cab, but I also bring my electric upright bass. There's a volume and amp/speaker proximity threshold where, once exceeded, an upright bass feels terrible to play. I do my best to avoid these situations.

 

[Ric Vice]

1. On an outdoor festival stage, this isn't really an issue, but even in a 2000 seat theater, the proximity effects of that low end start to make things muddy with a quickness.

2. IMO, stage wedges should have a pretty generous high pass filter on them, so if somebody truly wants the bass signal in their wedge, they'll be getting a pretty thin/stringy/clicky bass signal.

3. Toward that end, in a conventional setup, anyone that is off axis from just about any bass cab (this doesn't apply for my MAS cabs) is generally going to just get some washy low end mud and not a well defined tone.

4. I think the "amp on stage so the band can hear the bass" doesn't apply in situations where there is dedicated FOH reinforcement.

5. If it's a loud gig with a small run-it-from-the-stage-pa, I bring an amp/cab, but I also bring my electric upright bass.

6. There's a volume and amp/speaker proximity threshold where, once exceeded, an upright bass feels terrible to play. I do my best to avoid these situations.

This needs to be written down in stone somewhere, for all to see.

I had no idea why Double Bass sounds so bad, comming back through the monitors, (I always assumed what you needed a separate isolated bass channel), but if they are running a HPF from the board into the monitors set above 100 Hz

it won't sound great. Conversely if they aren't , you're going to get tons of low end through the monitors. Which will feed back immidately. So either you're tonally screwed or your in boomtown.

I generally bring the Clevenger for outdoor concerts, but evan as good as it can sound, it pales in comparison with my DB.

The MAS 1/8 is a whole different ball park isn't it. It creates a sound feild that makes
it very comfortable to play onstage in. I noticed you mentioned that, is your's powered?

 

[Givati]

My situation was very similar to OP. I also amplified my DB with PJB BG400. However, After reading “Stoping feedback in loud settings” and this thread I have realized I did a bunch of things wrong on my first gig out with the DB. I’m beginning to wonder if I’ll ever dial in a DB with the band I’m in. I mean, if this quote
“Still, there comes a time when upright feels more like a visual prop than a vehical for musical expression at high volume.” Is valid I might just continue playing my fretless bass instead of a DB. To me tone and hearing myself on stage are paramount!

 

[Ric Vice]

...If this quote “Still, there comes a time when upright feels more like a visual prop than a vehicle for musical expression at high volume.” Is valid I might just continue playing my fretless bass instead of a DB. To me tone and hearing myself on stage are paramount!

A very salient point, most often when I'm playing indoors, it's a concert situation so in those instances the Double Bass isn't a prop, but acoustics and bad sound re-enforcement can make it impossible to actually play DB so, my take is you're better off playing a fretless EB.

Just my opinion.

 

[longfinger]

“Still, there comes a time when upright feels more like a visual prop than a vehical for musical expression at high volume.”

Visual props are important. That's how the singer got hired. [ba-da-bing, pshhh. LOL]

or..

Visual props are important. That's how the singer, and therefore the rest of the band, got hired. [ouch! cry! I'll still take the $.]