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Need opinions and guidance building a space elevator.

#221
placedesjardins said:
To the OP, your topic title "Need opinions and guidance building a space elevator." was a guise. Going by the content of your first post, you never really wanted opinions or guidance, you are just trying to promote giving money to the space elevator program, a scam to raise money for personal use.
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This has been an absolute eye opener of a thread. Honestly.
I have mentioned money three times. Three, and not recently, and not like give me your money. I think many of you must be very sad, very distrusting people, or maybe it's just in your internet lives. I hope so. I really do.

For the record I have no monetary stake in this, I'm not Michael Laine, there is no money in any of this and probably won't be for at least three years, and when there is, as it stands right now, I stand to gain absolutely nothing. Nothing.

I'm appalled at many of you.
 
#222
mcglyph said:
It is somewhat relevant to you, you assert based on your ideas, etc, the project won't be...! And I contend you don't know. you just don't no one does. Including me, and as repeatedly stated right now, there are multiple question not even thought of yet, much less an answer for them, thus a time frame of ten years.

I have no ulterior motive. None. My one motive is the one I have stated all along. Oh wait, let's go about this another
way, since I've repeatedly stated answers to questions I've been asked to the best of my (rather limited) ability, you tell me what motive I might have and then I can directly refute it again, as I have said repeatedly I in fact don't actually have a motive other than the one previously stated. And while your at it please ask more questions I dont' have the answer to so I can say that again too. Or come up with some more.
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ, man. If it WAS directed at me, then why did you cop out of responding to the actual content of my reply.

I wasn't asserting based on my ideas, I was asserting based on an actual understanding of some of the science involved. An assertion that's backed up by every person I have ever had ANY contact with involved in the field, except for a few members of the LiftPort group, who happen to stand to profit greatly from suggesting otherwise. How much more obvious can an agenda get? Especially when this is a group who have already had some shady financial dealings when it comes to raising their funds?

Like has been said before, you don't want a DISCUSSION or a sharing of opinions. You want a pile of back-slapping about how great these guys are, combined with a bit of good ol' fashioned conversion to "the cause".

Its really quite simple, if you don't have the answers to the countless reasons people have brought up which render the 20 year time frame impossible, don't try and cop on like they're not valid reasons. You admit yourself that you don't actually understand any of the challenges it will face...so how can an incredibly scientifically, economically and politically flawed estimate, with no actual logical support, let alone concrete evidence, be taken seriously?

Are you genuinely using, "well we don't KNOW anything for sure, so it COULD happen then" as a defence of that estimate?

I don't KNOW for sure that something that every respectable material chemist on the planet thinks can't possibly happen in the next twenty years WON'T, any more than I KNOW for sure the Sun will rise tomorrow. But I'm not going to donate a grand into researching what we're going to do without the Sun either.

I'm NOT saying a space lift is IMPOSSIBLE, I AM saying that the twenty year estimate on the Earth one is as probable as the Sun not rising tomorrow. We simply won't have the ability to create a 36million kilogram CNT ribbon by then, even if every other hurdle was overcome.

This is NOT just "my opinion".
 
#223
Liftport Group is a legitimate group of Entrepreneurs with a great deal of expertise at their disposal. Liftport former clients include NASA. Liftport has a long term committment to developing technology for a space elevator.

Frankly I doubt if I will see a terrestrial space elevator in my lifetime... the necessary carbon naotubes materials are not yet available .... however ...

we CAN build a LUNAR elevator today, with existing materials, at modest cost (as aerospace projects go).

The Moon is a huge source of raw materials to feed space based industries. The Moon is much more valuable than Mars, for example. Lunar resources can be used to build constellations of solar power satellites to provide unlimited green energy to Earth. Lunar based industries will be the most sustainable of any space business. Much bigger potential than space tourism, or communications satellites, for example. I am a proponent of the Gerard o'Neill vision of The High Frontier, lunar elevator brings this scenario much closer to reality.

A lunar elevator does cost not so much, the Zylon material is about a few $K per kilogram, and a 1 kg filament currently is manufactured in lengths of about 5,000 km. A first generation lunar elevator can be built with a single Delta-IV launch of 11,000 kg of Zylon thread, with a capacity of about 20 kg payload up/down.

There are several interim projects which can move the process forwards. I refer you to these web links for more baclground:

http://www.tethers.com

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_space_elevator
 
#224
dj150888 said:
Jesus Christ, man. If it WAS directed at me, then why did you cop out of responding to the actual content of my reply.

I wasn't asserting based on my ideas, I was asserting based on an actual understanding of some of the science involved. An assertion that's backed up by every person I have ever had ANY contact with involved in the field, except for a few members of the LiftPort group, who happen to stand to profit greatly from suggesting otherwise. How much more obvious can an agenda get? Especially when this is a group who have already had some shady financial dealings when it comes to raising their funds?

Like has been said before, you don't want a DISCUSSION or a sharing of opinions. You want a pile of back-slapping about how great these guys are, combined with a bit of good ol' fashioned conversion to "the cause".

Its really quite simple, if you don't have the answers to the countless reasons people have brought up which render the 20 year time frame impossible, don't try and cop on like they're not valid reasons. You admit yourself that you don't actually understand any of the challenges it will face...so how can an incredibly scientifically, economically and politically flawed estimate, with no actual logical support, let alone concrete evidence, be taken seriously?

Are you genuinely using, "well we don't KNOW anything for sure, so it COULD happen then" as a defence of that estimate?

I don't KNOW for sure that something that every respectable material chemist on the planet thinks can't possibly happen in the next twenty years WON'T, any more than I KNOW for sure the Sun will rise tomorrow. But I'm not going to donate a grand into researching what we're going to do without the Sun either.

I'm NOT saying a space lift is IMPOSSIBLE, I AM saying that the twenty year estimate on the Earth one is as probable as the Sun not rising tomorrow. We simply won't have the ability to create a 36million kilogram CNT ribbon by then, even if every other hurdle was overcome.

This is NOT just "my opinion".
Click to expand...

I guess much of this ire, is probably connected to the idea that because I pointed to the kickstarter campaign, a few times, thus the thread is made out to obviously being about me asking for money. And then because it's assumed to be about money, it becomes much more important to everyone for things to be explicit, clear, and safe.

Well as I've stated previously and as stated very clearly on the page, the campaign is very much not about money, certainly not any I'm getting or expecting.

As far as the timeline, I believe what I've read and heard, ten years is a good estimate. You don't and your friends don't hold this opinion. Fine.This thread is not about money, it's about a crazy amazing attempt to do something which will greatly benefit the entire population of the earth.
 
#225
The whole reference to free Solar energy being some sort of awesome byproduct in this thread bugs the hell out of me.

You know who I'd rather send $8 to? The company that's right now fine tuning technology to create durable, low cost and completely clear solar panel windows for houses...Yeah that's right... regular looking windows that can power a good chunk of your house for free and provides power even when the grid is down.

Kind of puts the space elevator pretty far down on the priority list when you think about all the other emerging technologies that are trying to get off the ground and the real world immediate needs for them.
 
#226
livinitup0 said:
The whole reference to free Solar energy being some sort of awesome byproduct in this thread bugs the hell out of me.

You know who I'd rather send $8 to? The company that's right now fine tuning technology to create durable, low cost and completely clear solar panel windows for houses...Yeah that's right... regular looking windows that can power a good chunk of your house for free and provides power even when the grid is down.

Kind of puts the space elevator pretty far down on the priority list when you think about all the other emerging technologies that are trying to get off the ground and the real world immediate needs for them.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your reasoned, appropriate response. If you find a cause you can believe in, I hope you do everything you can to support it. I hope it's fun and interesting, and the whole thing moves forward smoothly to an earth altering conclusion.
For real.
 
#227
mcglyph said:
I'm not sure exactly why the Kickstarter.com campaign. I did hear they intend on taking the money, experimenting and creating a very big demonstration, going to 1000 ft I think, and thus generating some real money interest. They are also either working with, or planning to work with, SpaceX.
Click to expand...

The correct height is 2 KM. I did not get the figures, right. As stated previously, I'm not the one running this show. Please accept my apologies.
 
#228
charlesfradley said:
Liftport Group is a legitimate group of Entrepreneurs with a great deal of expertise at their disposal. Liftport former clients include NASA. Liftport has a long term committment to developing technology for a space elevator.

Frankly I doubt if I will see a terrestrial space elevator in my lifetime... the necessary carbon naotubes materials are not yet available .... however ...

we CAN build a LUNAR elevator today, with existing materials, at modest cost (as aerospace projects go).

The Moon is a huge source of raw materials to feed space based industries. The Moon is much more valuable than Mars, for example. Lunar resources can be used to build constellations of solar power satellites to provide unlimited green energy to Earth. Lunar based industries will be the most sustainable of any space business. Much bigger potential than space tourism, or communications satellites, for example. I am a proponent of the Gerard o'Neill vision of The High Frontier, lunar elevator brings this scenario much closer to reality.

A lunar elevator does cost not so much, the Zylon material is about a few $K per kilogram, and a 1 kg filament currently is manufactured in lengths of about 5,000 km. A first generation lunar elevator can be built with a single Delta-IV launch of 11,000 kg of Zylon thread, with a capacity of about 20 kg payload up/down.

There are several interim projects which can move the process forwards. I refer you to these web links for more baclground:

http://www.tethers.com

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_space_elevator
Click to expand...

So getting to the moon, setting up a base, AND a mine all has to happen before the lunar elevator. That's a crap ton of stuff that has to happen prior to the elevator.
 
#229
You guys just aren't seeing the light, imagine, a you get into an elevator moments late your in SPACE, this will provide a world without hunger, aids cancer, AND ALABAMA!!

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for

And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world

You, you may say
I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will live as one
 
#231
thepontif said:
However, I am not a supporter of anything more than good quality cabling. I would never pay more than a few dollars for a good power cable.
Click to expand...

The thread I mentioned about power cables, was one from a few years back where a company were trying to flog a ~$1500 power cable claiming it made a night and day difference in tone. Which, as per my previous comment, was some excellent snake oil.


mcglyph said:
The kickstarter.com campaign is clearly NOT going to generate the kind of money this project would require. As previously stated, the whole point of the kickstarter campaign is to get people talking about it, get comfortable with it, stir some interest, AND pay for the project to move forward a bit. It really does take money to do this stuff. This thread has not been and is not about you guys donating bunches of money. I've mentioned money three times in 11 pages.
If you don't want to contribute anything to the project, money, effort, time, brain power, then don't. Just can we stop with the, this is a scam comments? It's been said before, the project has lot's of questions, a few answers, many issues to be surmounted, etc; clearly no one should be mortgaging their house to donate, to, "get in on the ground floor". And thus no one is being encouraged to do so.
Click to expand...

So they get people to pay for their own promotions. Instead of producing a forum for public release where people are open to comment directly to the idea-men?

There are a lot of ways to get high risk/low potential return funding. Scientific flaws aside, their operation seems highly suspect all over. It just stinks of a scam to me, you know what they say, if it looks like a duck . . .

Also quite interested in what capacity this guy apparently worked for NASA, or if he was an outside contract, or if his company was contracted by them. It's something that doesn't seem to be out there, but seems odd considering it's practically his tag line.


charlesfradley said:
Liftport Group is a legitimate group of Entrepreneurs with a great deal of expertise at their disposal. Liftport former clients include NASA. Liftport has a long term committment to developing technology for a space elevator.
Click to expand...

Interesting, on the note of motives, joining a bass guitar forum and soley posting in this thread.


livinitup0 said:
The whole reference to free Solar energy being some sort of awesome byproduct in this thread bugs the hell out of me.

You know who I'd rather send $8 to? The company that's right now fine tuning technology to create durable, low cost and completely clear solar panel windows for houses...Yeah that's right... regular looking windows that can power a good chunk of your house for free and provides power even when the grid is down.

Kind of puts the space elevator pretty far down on the priority list when you think about all the other emerging technologies that are trying to get off the ground and the real world immediate needs for them.
Click to expand...

It's a really cool idea, focusing on either UV or IR absorption and conversion to electrical power while allowing Vis transmittance, though sadly many of the required raw materials for current tech are going to be too rare or expensive for eventual mass production. There could be work arounds, which would be awesome though!



I quite like some of the newer approaches at photovoltaic construction, the printable and organic based materials are looking really promising too (if only they can get more efficient). Heck, we could just print a bunch of them on the moon and transmit the power wirelessly. Job done.
 
#232
mcglyph said:
This has been an absolute eye opener of a thread. Honestly.
I have mentioned money three times. Three, and not recently, and not like give me your money. I think many of you must be very sad, very distrusting people, or maybe it's just in your internet lives. I hope so. I really do.
.
Click to expand...

Internet lives?

If some one ringed my doorbell and told me they needed money to build a space elevator I'd definitely give my money to them. That's a good spending of my money that I work my *** off for.

On the internet? No sir.:rollno:
 
#237
To the OP: if you didn't see this coming, I don't know what to tell you. Really? You thought there was a chance that this would be well recieved? Well.....
It won't stop, folks will continue to attack, you'll continue to have to defend yourself and your position, and it will get ugly to the point that the mods will close this debacle.
Just a bad idea all around.
 
#240
dmusic148 said:
To the OP: if you didn't see this coming, I don't know what to tell you. Really? You thought there was a chance that this would be well recieved? Well.....
It won't stop, folks will continue to attack, you'll continue to have to defend yourself and your position, and it will get ugly to the point that the mods will close this debacle.
Just a bad idea all around.
Click to expand...

This makes it worse. You are doing exactly what your post says, attacking the OP.
 

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