Double Bass New basses by independent builders vs. old basses

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Yea I was being a bit obtuse Ken.

MUSICIANS playing basses in orchestras for a living are a pretty small group and it makes sense for them to finance the tool required to do the job.

That ain't me.

My whole family lives in my house, and we really live better with a roof over our heads. That's worth taking a mortgage out for. I'm the only one using my bass and it doesn't generate near enough dough to take a note out on. Moreover it's discretionary. I've already got a bass that works fine for the gigs I get hired for. This is just a "I wanna play a better instrument cause I can thing".

Another rare group.

Yes, a bit obtuse..

What we have here is expensive tastes and it is not uncommon at all even in the Orchestral ranks. I had one customer that called a few times each time with a higher budget because he couldn't' find what he wanted or needed for less. Also, he was a great player and should have the best available. It's just that people can't always afford what the want, need or deserve.

I feel that some of my better Basses are way better than I am and belong in more capable hands. I started out looking for the 'ONE' and have since re-started my DB business back up to move thru the ones I buy and decide it's not me. The two that I like the most to date are the Martini and the Storioni. In the long run on the personal side I will have to sell most of them to pay down my credit line but I think I can end up with what I was looking for. Also, I have been fortunate enough to have a business that can fund this venture. The advantage I think I have provided is that I took several old Basses in dis-repair or totally un-playable and got them into tip top shape once again. Each project was well worth the effort and expense. It just took time and money plus the luck of finding these lost treasures as well.

I have sold some of each class of Basses to happy customers and some of them were placed in professional Orchestras. If not for the risks I took, these Basses would still be falling apart today and getting worse as time goes on. The best time to fix and save an old Bass is when you find it.

It's nice to set higher goals for what one wants. At least we are free to dream and maybe someday have that dream come true.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I still owe about $5K on a $9Kbass that I put in a Cherokee worth about $3K. Gigging once or twice a week currently generates a few hundred per month. Does it make sense from a financial standpoint? Not in the short term, but maybe over the long term. It will help me to become a better player and sound better in the process. Also, I expect it to hold a fair percentage of its value and appreciate in value in my old age. It will be paid for in another year or so, unlike my mortgage.

That said, I could do a lot of my gigs on an old Kay just fine and not have the hassle or worry of a nice bass getting trashed.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

May I ask what kind of bass this is?

I have a Kolstein bass.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I played an Auray bass once. I am really sorry to hear how expensive his basses have become because the one I played was heaven and I hoped to get one. If I had 30K to drop I would do it in a second.

One of my bigger regrets is not buying the Gruenert Testore-style model they had at Gage for a while that used to belong to Michael Moore. It was a cannon and incredibly healthy. I think it sold for around 17,500.

I was studying with Michael when he had that bass. It was a beauty.

 

[Heifetzbass]

One thing is for sure Toad... the longer you wait-the higher the prices get! It is amazing to see the inflation of bass prices over the last 15 years.

One the other hand- you have a distinct advantage. You don't "need" the instrument. You can be patient. Take your time, and you will find exactly what you are looking for.
BG

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

One thing is for sure Toad... the longer you wait-the higher the prices get! It is amazing to see the inflation of bass prices over the last 15 years.

One the other hand- you have a distinct advantage. You don't "need" the instrument. You can be patient. Take your time, and you will find exactly what you are looking for.
BG

Which sentence is correct. Wait and pay less or wait and pay more?

I know one thing, the cost to restore them is not going down even though the housing market is. The stock market goes up and down but Basses don't seem to care about that. As prices go up steadily on newly made Basses by Hand and Factory regardless of where in the world they are made, you can be sure that unless you find something in a closet the prices of old Basses will follow the market accordingly.

I have not bought a single old Bass, not a single one that did not need thousands of dollars of restoration or repair work, not a single one. There are Basses out there that may seem ready to go but after awhile, you find something that it needs. The Basses I have seen that were recently fully restored were priced at the top of the market regardless of what might have to be spent to personalize the set-up.

In order to win the Lottery, you have to buy a ticket! Or find one with the winning numbers..lol

 

[drurb]

One thing is for sure Toad... the longer you wait-the higher the prices get!...Take your time, and you will find exactly what you are looking for.
BG

Which sentence is correct. Wait and pay less or wait and pay more?

Both are correct. The first sentence says "If you wait, then you pay more." The second sentence doesn't say "Wait and pay less." It says "take your time." The message then is, yes, the longer you wait the higher prices go but it is important to spend the time to find exactly what you want. In any case, prices are not likely to rise substantially over the time that's likely to elapse if Phil takes his time in making his decision. I suspect that won't be years!

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Both are correct. The first sentence says "If you wait, then you pay more." The second sentence doesn't say "Wait and pay less." It says "take your time." The message then is, yes, the longer you wait the higher prices go but it is important to spend the time to find exactly what you want. In any case, prices are not likely to rise substantially over the time that's likely to elapse if Phil takes his time in making his decision. I suspect that won't be years!

Man, you know how to kill a party. Dissecting each word and sentence.. Lighten up!

I think most all other get my drift.

In any case, prices are not likely to rise substantially over the time that's likely to elapse if Phil takes his time

Believe what you wanna believe but in the old Basses business, they are getting harder and harder to come by. Prices will not be going down from what I have seen nor will the costs to repair them and get them up to snuff..

Now if you are talking about factory Basses made by the thousands in Germany then yes, they are around but still, prices are 10-30x what they cost back in the 60s and 70s even for the 'Plain-Jane' Juzeks imports.

 

[drurb]

Man, you know how to kill a party. Dissecting each word and sentence.. Lighten up!

I think most all other get my drift.

Well, sure if your idea of a party is misreading a post. (LOL!) I was merely pointing out that there was no contradiction at all.

Believe what you wanna believe but in the old Basses business, they are getting harder and harder to come by. Prices will not be going down from what I have seen nor will the costs to repair them and get them up to snuff..

Now if you are talking about factory Basses made by the thousands in Germany then yes, they are around but still, prices are 10-30x what they cost back in the 60s and 70s even for the 'Plain-Jane' Juzeks imports.

Speaking of lightening up! Take your own advice, man. The point was that the time-scale of the Toad taking his time is pretty short compared to the time it would take for prices to rise substantially. I'm thinking months here.

 

[Don Higdon]

I was studying with Michael when he had that bass. It was a beauty.

So was I. And he gave it up to play a Christopher plywood. Go figure. Well, that's one that Anita won't get.

I don't recall it having a Testore look. I thought the shoulders sloped more like a Quenoil.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Well, sure if your idea of a party is misreading a post. (LOL!) I was merely pointing out that there was no contradiction at all.

Not mis-reading it really but rather interpreting it a little differently. I have been in touch with Phil and he might be shopping for months or years depending on Basses available vs. value vs. money available. As I said before, when you find the right Bass at the right price, pull the trigger on it!


[qoute]Speaking of lightening up! Take your own advice, man. The point was that the time-scale of the Toad taking his time is pretty short compared to the time it would take for prices to rise substantially. I'm thinking months here.[/QUOTE]

I think I included my explanation above on this one as well.

About 2 years ago I met with my Banker to increase my credit line for the sole purpose of investing in old DBs when they come available at the right price. Since then I have turned down a Testore, a Fendt, a Panormo and several others all because they were either priced too high to buy and re-sell at a profit or needed restoration work which would make it too expensive to invest in. I have however jumped on a few other Basses that I felt were worth investing in. All of them needed vast restorations but also had promise. I can tell you that if I had waited a year or so, the prices would have jumped or at least jumped way up into retail land if the sellers had done the restorations prior to sale.

 

[bribass]

Yes, but in this current economic environment don't you think there could be at least some temporary softening in market prices w/ the tightening of available credit and all?

I would think that the individual player/seller could become more motivated in this climate and may become more prevalent in the market place than in the recent past.

With this recent credit crunch there has to be less people that will be able to qualify to extend that credit line. Therefore a softening in demand, therefore lower prices, at least in the short run, no?

I don't test the waters of the fine bass maket nearly that much to really know, but it stands to reason as a sign of the times that there may be some bargains out there to be had. If not with the major shops at least w/ individual sellers.

BG

 

[droo]

Yep - I imagine that self-employed musicians, orchestral or otherwise, would be some of the first to be denied credit in these times?

 

[drurb]

About 2 years ago I met with my Banker to increase my credit line for the sole purpose of investing in old DBs when they come available at the right price. Since then I have turned down a Testore, a Fendt, a Panormo and several others all because they were either priced too high to buy and re-sell at a profit or needed restoration work which would make it too expensive to invest in. I have however jumped on a few other Basses that I felt were worth investing in. All of them needed vast restorations but also had promise. I can tell you that if I had waited a year or so, the prices would have jumped or at least jumped way up into retail land if the sellers had done the restorations prior to sale.

Fascinating as this may be, it would seem that the price point you are discussing is not the one that interests the Toad. Namely, $20k. It's a matter of balance. The benefits of waiting and shopping carefully must be weighed against the potential increase in cost.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Fascinating as this may be, it would seem that the price point you are discussing is not the one that interests the Toad. Namely, $20k. It's a matter of balance. The benefits of waiting and shopping carefully must be weighed against the potential increase in cost.

Well, you happen to be incorrect here. In the last few years I have bought as well as acquired in trade many Basses in that range. As a matter of fact, the Bass that I have at home to practice on is a 3/4 Bohemian that is well under that 20k figure. The Bass I played last night was a Lombardi (Italian, 1981) and is in that range as well (depending on condition).

Among those I had and sold include the Morelli, Bollback Lion, Pollmann, Hungarian 4/5er, Bisiach, Bisch and still have my Batchelder which I no longer use and have had on the market. All of these Basses are in that range give or take. Just because I cherish the older English and Italians doesn't mean I don't like or play the under 25k Basses either.

I happen to be quite in tune with that -/+ 20k market as well.

 

[bribass]

Well, you happen to be incorrect here. In the last few years I have bought as well as acquired in trade many Basses in that range. As a matter of fact, the Bass that I have at home to practice on is a 3/4 Bohemian that is well under that 20k figure. The Bass I played last night was a Lombardi (Italian, 1981) and is in that range as well (depending on condition).

Among those I had and sold include the Morelli, Bollback Lion, Pollmann, Hungarian 4/5er, Bisiach, Bisch and still have my Batchelder which I no longer use and have had on the market. All of these Basses are in that range give or take. Just because I cherish the older English and Italians doesn't mean I don't like or play the under 25k Basses either.

I happen to be quite in tune with that -/+ 20k market as well.

Ken, I take it you feel that this credit crunch and recession will have NO effect on the bass market even in the short run?

BG

 

[drurb]

Well, you happen to be incorrect here. In the last few years I have bought as well as acquired in trade many Basses in that range. As a matter of fact, the Bass that I have at home to practice on is a 3/4 Bohemian that is well under that 20k figure. The Bass I played last night was a Lombardi (Italian, 1981) and is in that range as well (depending on condition).

Among those I had and sold include the Morelli, Bollback Lion, Pollmann, Hungarian 4/5er, Bisiach, Bisch and still have my Batchelder which I no longer use and have had on the market. All of these Basses are in that range give or take. Just because I cherish the older English and Italians doesn't mean I don't like or play the under 25k Basses either.

I happen to be quite in tune with that -/+ 20k market as well.

You're the one who mentioned Testore, Fendt, and Panormo! So I think I was quite correct that it would seem that the price point you [were] discussing is not the one that interests the Toad. So, fine, you are also including basses in the price range of the Toad. Now, let's take an asking price of around $20k. What do you suppose will be the price a year from now? Suppose it is 10% higher. That seems generous-- no? So, next year the bass will be $22k. Now, if I had that budget, I'd gladly pay that premium to be sure that I had taken my time and found exactly the bass I wanted. As I said, it's a balance. That's the message that started all of this. It should not be reduced to "Wait and pay more." Why in the world you thought Heifetzbass ever suggested that "Wait and pay less" would apply I just don't know. (LOL!)

 

[Uncletoad]

While we are discussing money a couple more questions for discussion. Since the value of basses generally appreciates over time assuming they are being well maintained I wondering about the appreciation rates of Older instruments vs. new builds. I assuming that as new builders continue to rise in their reputations the prices they command increase. I am also assuming the resale values of those instruments they've already built would rise as well. We have seen that older basses especially ones that are properly identified or "pedigreed" appreciate rapidly over 5 to 10 year spans.

What are the differences between appreciation rates of old vs new basses?

 

[CultureSliver]

On the matter of structural integrity, an old instrument that is well repaired or in good overall condition is much more settled than any new bass you buy. I have seen some of the nicest new basses made crack like you wouldn't believe(and not from banging it around). Wood needs to shrink and swell and it is, in my opinion, one of the biggest detours from a new instrument. One of the best things about a well settled instrument is the lack of unnecissary tension. I personally have always been partial to the old basses, they have more character. But I love to look at the beautiful new basses from Mario Lamar and Daniel Hachez and drool over the superb craftsmanship. But when it comes to my sound, old is gold.

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

You're the one who mentioned Testore, Fendt, and Panormo! So I think I was quite correct that it would seem that the price point you [were] discussing is not the one that interests the Toad. So, fine, you are also including basses in the price range of the Toad. Now, let's take an asking price of around $20k. What do you suppose will be the price a year from now? Suppose it is 10% higher. That seems generous-- no? So, next year the bass will be $22k. Now, if I had that budget, I'd gladly pay that premium to be sure that I had taken my time and found exactly the bass I wanted. As I said, it's a balance. That's the message that started all of this. It should not be reduced to "Wait and pay more." Why in the world you thought Heifetzbass ever suggested that "Wait and pay less" would apply I just don't know. (LOL!)

I mentioned those as ones I was NOT interested due to the Price. I did not list the ones I have been interested in or at lease not all of them.